North Korea about to launch Taepodong-2

Mr T

Senior Member
if Kim's actions were going to lead to war or upset the regional power balance then China would carry out a palace coup.

You make it sound easy. If China has so much power/influence that it could pull that off without a second thought, it begs the question why it hasn't used it to do something about the situation now. If it waits too long a war really could erupt. It would somehow imply China is actually content with what Pyongyang is doing.

China could successfully conclude a ground offensive if it was willing to put up with the casualties, but I think if it could change Kim for someone more reasonable it would have done that already.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
I wouldn't say "not unlike the last one" because that implies China would somehow support North Korea. If China sent the PLA into North Korea it would be against the Pyongyang regime. If it tried to annex North Korea in part or full, let alone support it, it would lead to an Asian Cold War, destroying all the good relations China had forged with its neighbours and the US (any many other countries).
Well, following my previous assertion, whether the action is in support of the particular government or not is irrelevant, the goal would be to re-establish a viable buffer state. NK is like Deng's cat.
 

optionsss

Junior Member
You make it sound easy. If China has so much power/influence that it could pull that off without a second thought, it begs the question why it hasn't used it to do something about the situation now. If it waits too long a war really could erupt. It would somehow imply China is actually content with what Pyongyang is doing.

Kim is playing both side, China have to worry about the Russian reaction as well. After the Korean war, the top Korean general supported by China was ousted by a combined effort of old Kim and Soviet Union.

On top of that, how would South Korean react, I know they don't like Kim, but they wouldn't like to see a Chinese run puppet state as well.

Then, there are other factors as well, such as providing the essential to the Koreans and fending off other international criticisms.

Kim is a very smart man, he knows that as long as he play with in certain rules, he is safe.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Actually this test probably had political intentions, as well as military. Kim would probably use this test to try to prove the point that the West is fearmongering NKorea threat, and to snub S. Korea which has still yet to launch a satellite into space.
 

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
From BBC:
No accord at UN talks on N Korea

The launch has provoked anger from North Korea's neighbours
An emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council to discuss North Korea's rocket launch has ended without agreement.

Japan's envoy said the council would continue consultations on the most appropriate way to respond.

Tokyo says it is seeking a UN resolution - but China and Russia have both called for restraint.

Pyongyang says it launched a satellite early on Sunday but its neighbours say it was testing missile technology.

So basically he's shown the threats to shoot it down as hollow. China and Russia are still dragging everything out :( I interpret that as him getting away with it and a few moire years of hell for his starving and abused people. :(

Whether a satellite is in orbit is easy for civilian space-watchers the world over to verify, so if no satellite is orbiting then it can be called a "failure" which could look bad for him if the rumour makes it inside his country and sticks. So missile test or not, the cover story might back fire. But to be honest, his rule of fear is so great that I doubt his reign will collapse on something as trivial as openly lying to his people.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Didn't the rocket fizzled out?

It all ended with a whimper. From the New York Times.

North Korean Missile Launch Was a Failure, Experts Say

April 6, 2009
By WILLIAM J. BROAD
Choe Sang-hun contributed reporting from Seoul, South Korea.

North Korea failed in its highly vaunted effort to fire a satellite into orbit, military and private experts said Sunday after reviewing detailed tracking data that showed the missile and payload fell into the sea. Some said the failure undercut the North Korean campaign to come across as a fearsome adversary able to hurl deadly warheads halfway around the globe.

Defying world opinion, North Korea in recent weeks had moved steadily and fairly openly toward launching a long-range rocket that Western experts saw as a major step toward a military weapon. The launching itself of the three-stage rocket on Sunday, which the North Korean government portrayed as a success — even bragging that the supposed satellite payload was now broadcasting patriotic tunes from space — outraged Japan and South Korea, led to widespread rebuke by President Obama and other leaders, and prompted the United Nations Security Council to go into an emergency session.

But looking at the launching from a purely technical vantage point, space experts said the failure represented a blow that in all likelihood would seriously delay the missile’s debut.

“It’s got to be embarrassing,” said Geoffrey E. Forden, a missile expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “I can imagine heads flying if the ‘Dear Leader’ finds out the satellite didn’t fly into orbit, ” he said, referring to the name North Koreans are obliged to use when speaking of Kim Jong-il, North Korea’s reclusive leader.

North Korea’s official news agency said Mr. Kim attended the launching.

Analysts dismissed the idea that the rocket firing could represent a furtive success, calling the failure consistent with past North Korean fumbles and suggesting it might reveal a significant quality control problem in one of the world’s most isolated nations.

“It’s a setback,” Jonathan McDowell, a Harvard astronomer who tracks satellites and rocket launchings, said of the North Korean launching. He added that the North Koreans must now find and fix the problem. “The missile doesn’t represent any kind of near-term threat.”

Others said North Korea’s client states, like Iran, seemed to be having more success at rocketry than North Korea. In February, Iran managed to launch a small satellite into orbit.

The United States Northern Command, based in Colorado Springs, issued a statement on Sunday that portrayed the launching as a major failure. It based its information on a maze of federal radars, spy ships and satellites that monitor global missile firings.

The command said that North Korea launched a Taepodong-2 missile at 11:30 a.m. local time, or 10:30 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time on Saturday, and that its first stage fell into the Sea of Japan, which analysts had expected as the point of splashdown in a successful launching.

However, “the remaining stages, along with the payload itself, landed in the Pacific Ocean,” the statement added. Analysts had expected the rocket’s second stage to land in the Pacific but its third stage and its ostensible satellite payload to fly into space.

The command emphasized that “no object entered orbit,” apparently a reference to both the rocket’s third stage as well as the supposed satellite.

North Korea’s public portrayal of the event as a complete success was similar in its celebratory tone to the happy note it struck in 1998 after having failed to loft a satellite into orbit.

News reports out of Japan also said the rocket’s second stage splashed down in the Pacific, hundreds of miles short of the danger zone that North Korea announced last month. Western analysts said that shortfall, if correct, probably indicated a failure of the missile’s second stage.

A general rule of engineering is that failures reveal more than successes. If so, North Korea — which has now test-fired three long-range rockets, each time unsuccessfully — is learning a lot about limitations.

“It’s not unusual to have a series of failures at the beginning of a missile program,” Jeffrey G. Lewis, an arms control specialist at the New America Foundation, a research group in Washington, said in an interview. “But they don’t test enough to develop confidence that they’re getting over the problems.”

Dr. Lewis added that an influential 1998 report by Donald H. Rumsfeld, before he became secretary of defense in the Bush administration, argued that the North Korean rockets might be good enough to pose a threat to the United States, even without flight testing.

“But given that both versions of the Taepodong-2 have failed now,” he said, “we have very little confidence in the reliability of the system.”

North Korea is often portrayed as technically adept when it comes to bombs and rockets. But Western analysts say that image is now in doubt amid rising questions of basic competence.

In August 1998, North Korea’s first attempt at launching a long-range rocket, the Taepodong-1, managed to scare Japan but failed to deliver a satellite to orbit. The troubles continued in July 2006 when its second test of a long-range missile, the Taepodong-2, ended in an explosion just seconds after liftoff.

And in October 2006, North Korea conducted an explosive test of a nuclear device inside a remote mountain tunnel. Many intelligence analysts judged it to be a fizzle that barely shook the ground. The test nonetheless raised fears that North Korea would seek to develop a nuclear warhead compact enough to fit atop a missile.

The current situation was different from past ones in that North Korea announced its rocket intentions weeks before the test firing, giving the International Maritime Organization coordinates at sea where it expected the first and second stages to splash down.

Western analysts called the missile launching a military endeavor, despite North Korea’s contention that its payload was for purely civilian purposes.

Dennis C. Blair, the director of national intelligence, told reporters last month, “North Korea is attempting to demonstrate an ICBM capability through a space launch.” He added: “Most of the world understands the game they are playing.”

David C. Wright, a senior scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists, a private group in Cambridge, Mass., estimated that the rocket, if eventually successful, might lead to a ballistic missile that could throw a warhead of 2,200 pounds to a distance of some 3,700 miles, far enough to hit parts of Alaska.

He added that if the warhead’s weight could be cut in half, down to 1,100 pounds, the rocket would be able to hurl the weapon much farther, about 5,600 miles. That, in theory, would bring the West Coast of the continental United States within its range.

But Dr. Wright noted that developing a miniaturized warhead “is likely to be a significant challenge for North Korea,” so that the rocket, even if successful, would “not represent a true intercontinental nuclear delivery capability.”

In an interview, he said the weekend test appeared to be less of a failure than the 2006 rocket attempt, and that it might provide useful information about how to make improvements.

But Dr. Wright added that the string of rocket failures over the past decade might indicate serious quality control problems. If so, North Korea may simply have “recurring problems in how they manufacture things,” which may prove hard to fix.

He added that the rocket’s failure might “open a window of opportunity” for the Obama administration to engage the North Koreans in disarmament talks.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
So basically he's shown the threats to shoot it down as hollow.

No, the threats were very specific. I.e. that the missile had to be going out of control and threatening population areas/the debris wasn't going to land as predicted.

Neither of that happened so it wasn't shot down.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
No, the threats were very specific. I.e. that the missile had to be going out of control and threatening population areas/the debris wasn't going to land as predicted.

Neither of that happened so it wasn't shot down.

It was polite of the rocket to fizzle out and go down on its own instead of having to spend millions of dollars in ordinance to do what it did to itself for free!:rofl:

The article is interesting though that it points out that failure can just be as useful as a success, how far along does this really indicate North Korea's missile technology is at? I mean even Iran launched a small sattelite on its own earlier.
 
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Delbert

Junior Member
Was the Taepodong-1 insufficient to launch a satellite?

If I am not mistaken Taepodong-1 has a longer range than missiles Iran has (Shahab 3).

If Iran was able to launch a satellite successfully, i do believe North Korea can supposed to used Taepodong-1 to launch a satellite. (Just to redeem themselves from past failures).
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
you guys are making the mistake of seeing NK as a single unitary actor, its not, it has political factions within the government like every other government that ever existed. for those who actually pay attention to the news Kim's last appearance looked as if he was seriously ill. this missile/satellite launch is more likely to be a move to consolidate or reaffirm the support of the military, and warning the west to back off. Kim already won this round when the pentagon declared that it will not attempt to shoot down whatever it is that NK launches. this stuff has way more political implications than military.
 
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