Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN

Japan is currently developing its next generation of destroyers. One of two possible designs is a wave piercing design like the DD(X). The first vessel of this class may enter service as early as 2011! This is a huge wake up call to the PLAN. The PLAN is seriously behind if both US and Japan are fielding surface combatants that outclass the PLAN's.

China has no choice but to greatly increase funding to catch up. China has taken too long to experiment with designs that are comparable to Arleigh Burkes and Ticonderogas. They must settle on a design for the current crop of surface combatants and start mass producing them. Meanwhile, development should be started (or accelerated) on wave piercing designs. China must have an operational wave piercing ship by 2013!

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

roger, I'm a bit confused about what you want to talk about. Is this supposed to be about the next generation of Japanese ships, because you seem to be putting all your focus on China's need to compete with this. In that case this should be in the Chinese navy section.

I must admit, I'm not sure how China can compete with something which is still in the planning stage. You stress the need for wave-piercing designs, but I'm not sure how crucial they are. The Americans have already scaled back their proposed build to 7 from over 20. I've also heard doubts about the reliability of the plans - China should use caution rather throwing away money.

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

FuManChu said:

roger, I'm a bit confused about what you want to talk about. Is this supposed to be about the next generation of Japanese ships, because you seem to be putting all your focus on China's need to compete with this. In that case this should be in the Chinese navy section.

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Let's let the mods figure this one out, shall we?

FuManChu said:

I must admit, I'm not sure how China can compete with something which is still in the planning stage. You stress the need for wave-piercing designs, but I'm not sure how crucial they are. The Americans have already scaled back their proposed build to 7 from over 20.

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Yes, the DD(X) program has been scaled back due to skyrocketing costs. At first glance it suggests that these designs are not cost-effective, but the serious consideration the Japanese are giving to them gives a lot of credenance to their viability. I can see Americans putting a lot of money into high tech projects that turn out to be more dream than reality, but the Japanese are a lot more pragmatic than that. So a firm Japanese commitment to a wave piercing design would signal strongly that this is the next generation of surface combatants. And China would be dangerously behind if it does not start developing this now.

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

Roger604 said:

Let's let the mods figure this one out, shall we?

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It would help the discussion if you pointed out what you wanted to talk about.

but the Japanese are a lot more pragmatic than that. So a firm Japanese commitment to a wave piercing design would signal strongly that this is the next generation of surface combatants. And China would be dangerously behind if it does not start developing this now.

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If China were to start going along the lines of the DDX programme, and then Japan decided it was pie-in-the-sky or too risky, wouldn't that indicate it was money wasted? Would you have China still develop such vessels if Japan trashed that concept?

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

Like it or not, nations will improve their military forces and acquire newer and better toys. Just as the PRC sees Japanese military acquisitions as a threat, so does Japan see PLAN's new ships.

IMO in some ways the USN sees Japan's Navy as a regional back-up force. The US is more willing to export advanced technology to Japan than S. Korea or Taiwan. Japan was the first export-customer of the Aegis combat system, and its Kongo-class ship represented the most technically advanced ship in East Asian navies for well over a decade.

It's also worth noting that the US did not export any Aegis sytems to other countries until a decade later. Although the S. Koran KDX-III wll be more advanced than the Kongo, the US is also exporting the same Aegis Combat System baseline 7 phase 1 to Japan for the Atago class destroyer, which maintains Japanese navy's technical competitiveness with its neighbors.

In comparison, the US was never as generous with Taiwan/ROCN. When the ROCN wanted to develop the Cheng Kung (OH Perry) class ship into something like the Spanish F-100 Frigate with Aegis-lite, the plan was ultimately scrapped because the US gave no assurances that it'd export the technology needed.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Japanese DD(X). Usually the hype is bigger than the actual product. It'd prolly have very advanced defensive/anti-missile system, but you won't see Tomahawks on it.

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

Roger604 said:

Japan is currently developing its next generation of destroyers. One of two possible designs is a wave piercing design like the DD(X). The first vessel of this class may enter service as early as 2011! This is a huge wake up call to the PLAN. The PLAN is seriously behind if both US and Japan are fielding surface combatants that outclass the PLAN's.

China has no choice but to greatly increase funding to catch up. China has taken too long to experiment with designs that are comparable to Arleigh Burkes and Ticonderogas. They must settle on a design for the current crop of surface combatants and start mass producing them. Meanwhile, development should be started (or accelerated) on wave piercing designs. China must have an operational wave piercing ship by 2013!

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I don't see PLAN jumping in on this technology quite yet. The DD(X) is being built from technologies advanced and derived from Aegis lineage. China is currently working on ships (lineage/capability wise) the USN fielded in 1983. And still has a loooong way to go before they have the networked battle management system that is AEGIS. With all the electronic goodies they encompass. Not to mention the naval doctrine that one has to develop to employ them. China's newest naval ships are all currently from an existent technological base. I know you guys don't like to hear it, but from secondary foreign sources. Not from sources that are technologically indigineous in all cases. This is why a DD(X) design is nowhere near in China's future.

As far as Japan, I tend to agree with adeptitus. This will likely be for defensive roles primarily. Not the land attack support and long-range force projection USN sees in their designs.

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

Sea Dog, the same goes for any Japanese DD(X) design. A large part of any such ship would be of American origin and the project would probably have a lot of American help and American weapons, sensors and other technologies. With essentially two camps of weapons in the worlds, ones with US origins and influences and ones with Russia influences and origins, foreign technology is to be expected for most countries. However, as China and India rise to superpower status they'll carve out their own weapopns niche.

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

since this is turning into a China vs Japan topic, I'm going to move this to the Chinese Navy section and change the title

Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

Finn McCool said:

Sea Dog, the same goes for any Japanese DD(X) design. A large part of any such ship would be of American origin and the project would probably have a lot of American help and American weapons, sensors and other technologies. With essentially two camps of weapons in the worlds, ones with US origins and influences and ones with Russia influences and origins, foreign technology is to be expected for most countries. However, as China and India rise to superpower status they'll carve out their own weapopns niche.

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I couldn't agree with you more. On both counts. China has already acheived some of this with their export of advanced cruise missiles like C-802, and it's FC-1 project to Pakistan. Not to mention they have upgraded some of their older naval vessels to more modern capabilities. I wonder if some of these older PLAN naval ships will see service in other navies once PLAN builds it's indigineous force of 054A,052C, 052D etc.

Well, arm race should not be played this way.

You only follow your own rules. You don't need to start it, you need to control how to end it. If China knee jerks to this computer drawing, just have a look the past 50-100 years, she would've died of heart attacks million times already.

I think arm race can be played in a healthy way and every one can be happy.:roll: