Next Generation DDG and FFG thread (after 055, 052D, 054B)

[Tomboy]

Using a smaller SAM on frigates allows for your surface groups to have a multilayered air defense, which is superior to just relying on a single SAM missile. Bigger is not always better, particularly when it comes to different SAMs. HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 are optimized for different engagement envelopes, and against certain attack profiles and targets the HHQ-16 is superior. It would be incorrect to conclude the HHQ-9 is more advanced simply by virtue of its size and range.

Well nevertheless bigger VLS cells comes with more options like being able to multipack the aforementioned medium/short range air defense missiles and also enhanced antiship operations.

 

[Gloire_bb]

According to my understanding, right now frigates such as the 054A/B carry smaller VLS cells that is not capable of launching more advanced air defense missiles such as HHQ-9/26 and potentially in the future HHQ-19 etc.

They aren't more advanced, just longer-ranged. Within sensory range of frigate, they just won't add any benefits, but they will constrain ship design.

There's merit to let frigate carry larger SAMs, but frankly for PLAN it isn't worth it; frigate is first and foremost needed as a frigate.
There are much more rational ways to bring additional cells to the sea if so desired, like lightly/optionally manned "cell boats".

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Well nevertheless bigger VLS cells comes with more options like being able to multipack the aforementioned medium/short range air defense missiles and also enhanced antiship operations.

Any quad packable missile is going to be of significantly shorter range than a HHQ-16 and will be occupying a different role in the multilayered air defense. HHQ-16 fits in nicely between a very long range SAM with (ideally) 300km+ range and a theoretical quad packed missile with at most 60-70km range. Eventually you would want your surface group to have all three. As for enhancing antiship operations, that's completely unnecessary on a frigate.

 

[Tomboy]

Paper concerning a composite superstructure for next generation DDG/CG from Jiangnan shipyard.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Another academic paper with a non-icebreaker simulation hull model, posted by SOYO on Weibo. The stated hull dimensions are as follows:

Waterline Length: 184 meters
(Waterline?) Beam: 22.2 meters
Hull Depth: 15.8 meters
Draft: 7.2 meters

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Another academic paper with a non-icebreaker simulation hull model, posted by SOYO on Weibo. The stated hull dimensions are as follows:

Waterline Length: 184 meters
(Waterline?) Beam: 22.2 meters
Hull Depth: 15.8 meters
Draft: 7.2 meters


View attachment 155175

Just a note:
This hull's stated dimensions are (mostly) waterline-based. Assuming that this model is actually representative of a currently-WIP ship and not only for general simulation/study/archive purposes, and bar other factors at play - Once realized, the overall dimension of the ship will only be greater.

TL; DR - If this is going to be a surface combatant, then said ship will have similar full-load displacement as the ASEV or Zumwalt DDGs, if not somewhat heavier (i.e. roughly Strike Cruiser CSGN).

 

[Cloud_Nine_]

Just a note:
This hull's stated dimensions are (mostly) waterline-based. Assuming that this model is actually representative of a currently-WIP ship and not only for general simulation/study/archive purposes, and bar other factors at play - Once realized, the overall dimension of the ship will only be greater.

TL; DR - If this is going to be a surface combatant, then said ship will have similar full-load displacement as the ASEV or Zumwalt DDGs, if not somewhat heavier (i.e. roughly Strike Cruiser CSGN).

For reference ASEV is 190m*25m overall. Strike cruisers were pretty big gurls at over 200 meter length but also pretty slim too at 23ish meters wide. The notional hull looks a lot like a lengthened but not widened 055 hull and closer to strike cruiser levels of slim. This feature is very reminiscent of the 055 bow too.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

For reference ASEV is 190m*25m overall. Strike cruisers were pretty big gurls at over 200 meter length but also pretty slim too at 23ish meters wide. The notional hull looks a lot like a lengthened but not widened 055 hull and closer to strike cruiser levels of slim. This feature is very reminiscent of the 055 bow too.View attachment 155180

Other illustrations from the same paper.



Some comments by SOYO on his/her findings, summed up with key points below:

- The model has only been observed in one academic paper so far, and hasn’t appeared in other publicly available materials.

- It’s unclear whether this represents a future warship design or is merely a reproduction of an existing hull (e.g. 055 DDG).

- The author may have intentionally obfuscated key metrics. Namely, with the listed total length of 18X meters and beam of 2X meters, which coincidentally align with the Type 055’s dimensions.

- However, if the hull model is unaltered and is representative of the actual dimensions of the ship's hull, then the hull model’s waterline length of 184 meters would imply a total length exceeding 195 meters, which is comparable to the Hyuga DDHs of the JMSDF.

- Besides, as a FEA model of a typical large stealth surface combatant, this hull model lacks inward-sloping angles, yet featuring vertical lines instead.

- Moreover, a waterline length-vs-beam of 184 meters-vs-22.2 meters would result in a length-to-beam ratio of more than 8.5. Compared to the 055 DDG’s length-to-beam ration of less than 8.1, such a hull would significantly reduce performance in high sea-states.

- This means while the hull model beam is stated in the paper as 22.2 meters, restoring the omitted stealth features (i.e. those removed angled sections) would push the actual waterline beam to 23–24 meters, which reduces the length-to-beam ratio to below 7.95. This would ensure that the hull maintains good high-sea-state seakeeping performance even after the addition of a large superstructure and mast.

- Furthermore, based on past experience, in various ship-related academic papers from Harbin Engineering University (哈工程), aside from publicly disclosed specialized test models (e.g. 5415, SUBOFF), most models are not purely academic/research test models. Instead, they are usually reproductions of real warships or older models (such as the initial 054B FFG proposal).

- The hull model in this paper already shows noticeable opening structures in the bow section, which actually contains more details than the commonly used destroyer model by Dahaiyuan (大海运) (also posted here in this thread before). Hence, it might be worth keeping an eye on whether this ship hull will actually become a reality.

TL; DR - Either this model is just for a master's degree's thesis/paper from 哈工程, or this model is actually (and at least partially) illustrative of the PLAN's future 055-successor DDG (or even the first CG for the PLAN) plans.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

View attachment 152180
SOYO said the new boat is to use gas turbine as primary power source and the said new boat has a high chance of being an FFG. Additionally, it is possible that 054B will not be procured en masse and will stop after the first 6 ships and with that the 054 designation might come to an end.

Hold the horses on that one first.

Two news (or not exactly news) From SOYA on Weibo:
- The (40MW-class) CGT-40 gas turbine engines going onboard new (war)ships have been decided upon (板上钉钉) 2-3 years ago. What matters now is when those new (war)ships (with CGT-40) will appear.
- There looks to be a new CODAD propulsion system in the works, so don't conclude in advance that the next-generation FFG will definitely be using gas turbine engines.

 

[gelgoog]

If they use the 40 MW gas turbines, they could make a CODAG configuration with one 40 MW boost turbine, and two of those 7 MW diesels.

This could be used in a new DDG to replace Type 052. I still expect Type 054B frigates to be built but that weapon configuration is underwhelmimg.