Ah perhaps the L48 is on Type 96 whereas the L50 is on Type 99s. I don't know if China has ever formally acquired 2A46 but I recall reading plenty of online sources suggesting Type 96's main gun is derived from one. Maybe from T80 trials and imports or from Ukrainian suppliers? One of the Ukrainian main guns is also derived from the 2A46. Not to mention the two guns looks identical down to the thermal sleeves and fume extractor details.
New Type98/99 MBT thread
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Ah perhaps the L48 is on Type 96 whereas the L50 is on Type 99s. I don't know if China has ever formally acquired 2A46 but I recall reading plenty of online sources suggesting Type 96's main gun is derived from one. Maybe from T80 trials and imports or from Ukrainian suppliers? One of the Ukrainian main guns is also derived from the 2A46. Not to mention the two guns looks identical down to the thermal sleeves and fume extractor details.
Would like to see source for them looking remotely similar, aside from caliber. I mean both obviously look like tank guns, but the barrel and sleeve look quite different.
China has never trialled the Oplot or any of the Ukrainian T-80s. And even if they only saw one, why would they be so enarmored with it that they would rush to reproduce exactly the same cannon for domestic use? It’s not like the Oplot is a super tank. And military officials have likely seen most tank types up close.
The ZPT-98 was however influenced by contemporary weapons such as the 2A46M5 and 120mm L44/L55. A 125mm caliber was chosen to add extra punch compared to the Type 89’s western 120mm.
There were rumours that China did buy a few samples of T-80s to test and perhaps adopt. If you look at photos of Type 96 vs T-72 or T-90, the guns do have the same sections and almost identical dimensions to those sections. Fume extractor position is also the same.
It is described officially as self developed and this 125mm is the first change from 105mm. The 125mm was developed with different lengths and production techniques applied but the overall gun design was made with reference to the 2A46. Check out the references used by for a start. While it is not officially recognised as based off 2A46, the superficial visual similarities are there to be observed. We cannot prove any more beyond this.
I guess both 96 and 99 tanks use the same designation ZPT-98 gun but there are surely sub-types of this gun as evidenced by the different barrel lengths.
It does say it has over 45% higher kinetic muzzle energy compared to the 2A46M-1, but that's four versions behind the 2A46M-6 used by the T-90M. Also actual numbers would be welcome.
And no. It does not translate automatically to better penetration capability. Numerous factors have to be studied to give such statement.
In 1992 China bought fifty T-72 from Russia. China also acquired a T-72 in 1986/87 from Romania which itself bought it from Israel. Also Iran might have given a T-72 captured from Irak in the early 90'. So yes, China definitely got its hands on the 2A46 (and its auto-loader) design.
Again, infos on how the ZPT-98 compares to the 2A46M-5 ?
As @ougoah say, "ZPT-98" is a designation for multiple guns, just as the engine "150HB" with at least 3 engines having the same name.
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Israel has T-72s now? Russia has never sold T-72 or any tank after T-55 to China, during the period when T-72 was in vogue, relations were extremely poor. China is not listed as a T-72 operator. Why would China, a country with one of the most developed military industrial complexes, be interested in asking Iran for a Iraqi tank proved to be extremely outdated, AND then base a domestic design on it?? IN the late 90s?
None of these theories explain why the MIC would supposedly be so enamored with the T-72 gun, in 1998 no less.
It seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking from some western armchairs who sleep better at night when they can tell themselves the 99A is the same as some Iraqi piece of crap.
You can watch the shooting part in the tank biathlon and see for yourself the difference between a T-72B3M (2A46M5) firing on the move compared to a type 96A (ZPT-98).
As for surface similarity between tank guns, it’s because they are contemporaries of eachother. The IMI 120mm looks quite alike to the Rheinmetall 120mm as well, but are not related other than in caliber.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
No claim was Isreal captured T72 tanks in conflicts in the 1980s then sold to Romanian who in turn sold to China. The whole thing is a little convoluted
The second claim which has some backing although thin is that at the end of the USSR The Russians sold China either T80s or the up-to-date T72 particularly after the Gulf war.
Because at that time they didn't have today's level. This would have been the early 1990s.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Because it wasn't the late 1990's. The Iran Iraq was took place in the 1980s. The Isreali capture was claimed to be early 1980s sale mid 1980s resale late 1980s, Russian sale 1989-1992.
All are not trying to pinpoint for type 96 type 98 or type 99 but
the first confirmed 125mm Chinese built tank the type 90II sometime called Type 85-IIM. That tank had the 125mm and autoloader and dates to between 1991 and 1992. It wasn't adopted by the PLA but indicates the first solid 125mm gun for them.
From there the Chinese designed their own. But as far as is known that tank had the Russian gun.
It's an insanely convoluted theory solely made up for wishful thinking. China may or may not have acquired Soviet stuff after the fall, or from the former Soviet republics (as America also did), but the only purpose of those purchases would be to gain intel on soviet equipment. Had once seen something or used something as target practice =/= the top domestic platforms are copies of that something.
You can spare me the horseshit about "they didn't have today's level", that they were not world leading doesn't mean they would ever want to copy something from a nation that didn't even have an automobile industry, let alone tank industry. That made tanks with civilian grade steel and was proven undisputedly one of the worst at war. Because the gun that accurately hit targets on the move (something which the MODERN Russian 2A46M5 on the T72B3M struggles with!), that won the tank gun bid over the Type 89's Western 120mm and an upgunned version of the the rifled Type 59G gun, is clearly based on an iraqi museum piece that couldn't hit or penetrate an abrams at close range, something which even houthi AT weapons can do. Sure.
Several countries disagree with your assessment. They have turned down both T-84 and T-90MS for downgraded Type 96 or Type 99 models. And the Type 96's gun capability completely humiliated the T72B3M's in the tank biathlon as well. That can only mean 1 of 2 possibilities:
1. Iraq was secretly a technological powerhouse, whose locally made 2A46 variant from the 1980s outperformed Russian 2000s era guns. China knew this and went out of it's way to specifically get an Iraqi tank to copy, despite having access to Russian/Ukrainian designs post fall as well as western designs from pre-tiananmen, including the rifled L7 and L50 120mm.
2. The theory is BS
I think we both know which one is more likely.
It's not at all convoluted to believe that there is some merit to the theories that ZPT-98 is at the very least inspired by the design of the 2A46 series. China may or may not have accessed that Soviet gun but it is a 125mm and it does fire the Refleks or was it Sniper ATGM. It is a step up from the old 105mm and would save a hell of a lot of time and resources just to develop something of relative insignificance. It may have been from Russia, from Ukraine, from Iraq or Iran. It may have been acquired privately and studied.
Most Chinese sources that I've read do seem to indicate that the ZPT-98 is a direct copy, not even a modified variant of the 2A46, a direct copy. There's no shame in this. We're talking 80s China when most other military equipment were heavily derived if not direct copies or licensed production versions of Soviet equipment. Even advanced hardware like fighters, missiles, and submarines. Doubt such early Chinese efforts to design and manufacture a 100% domestic unique tank gun would amount to something much better than 2A46. So of course they wouldn't really bother. Being able to manufacture it to a decent quality and all domestically would have been a good enough result. The earliest versions of this 125mm obviously isn't the same as the one on Type 99 or even maybe Type 96 of today.
Most Chinese sources that I've read do seem to indicate that the ZPT-98 is a direct copy, not even a modified variant of the 2A46, a direct copy. There's no shame in this. We're talking 80s China when most other military equipment were heavily derived if not direct copies or licensed production versions of Soviet equipment. Even advanced hardware like fighters, missiles, and submarines. Doubt such early Chinese efforts to design and manufacture a 100% domestic unique tank gun would amount to something much better than 2A46. So of course they wouldn't really bother. Being able to manufacture it to a decent quality and all domestically would have been a good enough result. The earliest versions of this 125mm obviously isn't the same as the one on Type 99 or even maybe Type 96 of today.
I never said it wasn’t inspired by it, contrary to that.
Like the earlier Chinese source said, it was made with an eye on contemporary 125mm designs, which at the time would have been 2A46M2 or 3. It was also designed accounted for with specs from other contemporary weapons and what kind of new guns would enter service in the near future.
Basing platforms on elite Soviet equipment (such as Flankers) is hella different compared to buying Iraqi museum pieces. Even at the nadir of army funding, the military industrial complex was still top 10, if not top 5 within the world.
Again there is no explanation on how a gun based on Iraqi monkey model 125mm surpasses the 2000s era Russian 125mm.
Like the earlier Chinese source said, it was made with an eye on contemporary 125mm designs, which at the time would have been 2A46M2 or 3. It was also designed accounted for with specs from other contemporary weapons and what kind of new guns would enter service in the near future.
Basing platforms on elite Soviet equipment (such as Flankers) is hella different compared to buying Iraqi museum pieces. Even at the nadir of army funding, the military industrial complex was still top 10, if not top 5 within the world.
Again there is no explanation on how a gun based on Iraqi monkey model 125mm surpasses the 2000s era Russian 125mm.