Naval missile guidance thread - SAM systems

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
This is something I've been wondering for a while. How is the SPG-62 actually slaved to SPY-1? I mean, what control mechanism ensures that SPG-62 points to where the SPY-1 is pointing or telling it to point and keeps staying on target, if the SPG-62 has no receive capability?
By the same way used for 100 years on battleships, to point and keep the guns on target.

Gyroscope + accelerometers .

But the illumination beam is quite wide, I think they need to calibrate them quite infrequently.

And considering that it is a ship it is relatively easy to calibrate them with receiver antennas on different points on the ship.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Each of this variable component is in some way or form related to frequency band. Specific to our overall conversation and in particular radar discrimination it is about range resolution and angular resolution. Range resolution is inversely proportional to bandwidth. For a phased array radar, its bandwidth β is typically limited to roughly 10% of its operating frequency. The best possible range resolution ΔR is then about ΔR = c/2β, where c is the speed of light.

Range resolution is based on pulse width. It isn't frequency related. This won't apply to continuous wave illumination radars however, as they don't have any pulse. For FMCW radars, that will be the width between the modulated peaks in an otherwise sinusoidal waveform. For radars with pulse compression, then its about bandwidth or length of the transmitted pulse, managed by the ability of the radar to compress the pulse, or to modulate the wave within the pulse.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Angular resolution is not produced with the main beam, that would produce useless results (several km big spot ) .

Brumby is not basically incorrect. You can narrow or tighten the beam to prevent it from fanning out, or use very large antennas or both.

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The angular resolution characteristics of radar are determined by the antenna beamwidth represented by the
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which is defined by the half-power (-3 dB) points. The half-power points of the antenna radiation pattern (i.e. the -3 dB beamwidth) are normally specified as the limits of the antenna beamwidth for the purpose of defining angular resolution; two identical targets at the same distance are, therefore, resolved in angle if they are separated by more than the antenna -3 dB beamwidth.


The best method is monopulse , in the case of phased array they break the antenna to 2-4 subgroup, and generate 2-4 beam, with different characteristic.

True.

But this method is exploited by countermeasures. Forgive the bad spelling of the non English speaking writers of the research paper.

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Abstract:
Custom monolulse radar has capability to measure the elavation and azimuth angles, and the angular resolution capibility depends on width of antenna beam, so it can't distinguish two or mutiple targets in main beam. In order to improve the angular resolution of custom monupulse radar, a novel system structure of monopulse radar is proposed in this paper, and a new solutin to resolve the angle using a mono pulse of four channels is presented. This new method skillfully chooses and uses the received signal of diagnol difference channel, and it can simultaneously derive two targets' two-dimension angular information at main beam during one measuring process, so the new method can distinctly improve the angular resolution capability. The algorithm is simple and easy to carry out, and its stability is very good on the condition of different SNR and different return power ratio. Numerical simulations have demonstrated the effectiveness of the approach proposed.


1. Introduction
Mono pulse radar has been widely used because of the high angle measurement accuracy [1]–[7]. However, when there are two or more target in the beam, the echo signal aliasing caused by the coupling of mono pulse radar observations, the result can not be correct, which leads to the failure of target tracking. Towed decoy, dual source interference and a series of jamming technology is developed by using these defects of mono pulse radar. Improving the angle resolution technology of mono pulse radar has become the focus of radar signal processing field. Many scholars have made researches on the detection and resolution of two targets. The [8], [9], based on instantaneous moment method and simplified model likelihood was obtained for the analytical expression of two target angle estimation, but the premise is the two target power or power ratio should be known. Based on the information of interference detection, radar measurement and tracking, the estimation of relative power ratio of target and decoy is realized [10]. The maximum likelihood estimation method based on the conditional distribution of the received echo is proposed by [11] and [12], and the Ref. [13] is proposed to obtain the target angle by calculating the centroid angle and combination with clustering method. In conclusion, the existing methods are needed to deal with the use of multiple pulse information, can not fully take advantage of single pulse to obtain target angle. In the literature [14], the main lobe jamming ECM method is studied by using the digital array diagonal difference channel, and the Ref. [15] points out that the diagonal difference channel is a very useful channel, but there is no deep analysis of the angle resolution. Based on the characteristics of diagonal difference channel, put forward a new monopulse radar system structure, two targets angular in main beam can be resolved by using one pulse, and this new method is verified by simulation analysis.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Does anyone have RCS figures for a Tomahawk or LRASM or NSM?

Maybe Brumby knows. For cruise and antiship missiles I usually start with the assumption of 0.5m2 as a reference. Note that RCS varies with frequency and they get bigger with longer wavelengths.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Nice categorization. However it's missing the fact that for SARH guidance in X-band band you need CW capability. Not all X-band radars are automatically suitable for this role, as search and track radars typically operate in pulsed mode.

To come back to your question, one of the original theories regarding Type 346 on 052C is that it is a C-band radar, based/assisted by Ukrainian technology/design from the KVANT bureau. The hypothessis was that the radar has bith search/track and illumination capability (ICWI?). Another connection could be made to the HT-233 radar, used in the HQ-9 SAM system.

Well, I'm not suggesting any old X band radar is capable of doing terminal illumination for SARH missiles.

That is why I specifically mentioned X band mechanically steered terminal illuminators and X band phased array radars capable terminal illumination -- i.e.: to qualify that these are X band radars capable of terminal illumination.



As for the Type 346's lineage from the Ukrainian firm, no I don't think that ancient theory holds any water anymore. Back in the mid to late 2000s when we didn't have much information about the type 346 and limited ability to gauge the Chinese radar industry, then sure maybe it was entertained by some.
But that theory today is completely inconsistent with what information we are able to confidently state about the type 346 family.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
...
But that theory today is completely inconsistent with what information we are able to confidently state about the type 346 family.

What are we able to confidently state about Type 346?

Last year when I discussed with Tam the hypothesis of Type 346 being exclusively C-band, the arguments against that were:

1. The radar also needs to be able to do volume search. That would mean that Type 346 AESA would need to have ICWI capability. That seemed a bit of a stretch to expect from China in the early 2000s.

2. If in C-band, given the size of the arrays, the number of T/Rs elements would approach 20000 per face to maintain 60° FOV. That would make the radar very expensive, but also very capable.

3. There were some concerns about range, due to attenuation/scattering loss. We never quantified the disadvantage of C-band at 6GHz compared to S-band at 3.4GHz in the 300km operating range.

Some arguments for C-band:
1. Missile guidance. HQ-9 relies on a C-band engagement radar. This assumes that HHQ-9 is also SARH/TVM.
2. According to some western analysts, there were doubts that China was able to produce S-band modules of sufficient power in the early 2000s.

Arguments for dual S-band/C-band:
1. Wiki article: large S-band array sandwiched between two C-band FCR arrays. Looking at the shape of the C-band arrays, it appears unlikely these would serve as illuminators. Instead, they are more likely used for IFF and high data rate communication with the missiles.
2. Evolution of Type 346A/B into even larger arrays. This would be unlikely if they are C-band, but seems consistent with lower frequencies. However, I am not confident that we can completely reject the possibility that these may be fundamentaly different radars, ie C-band on 052c vs S-band in 052d and Type 55.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
2. According to some western analysts, there were doubts that China was able to produce S-band modules of sufficient power in the early 2000s.

I prefer not to take their word for it. Western analysts are as wet on the Chinese defense industry as Gordon Chang's prophecies of the Chinese economy failing in the 2000s.

C-band modules would have been a more technologically greater issue than an S-band module given that C-band modules would have to be physically smaller than the S-band, which means that the square die for your LNA would have to be smaller and unable to take as much power as a bigger die on a larger PC board. Remember that one dimension in the C-band module would have to square with its wavelength. This does not mean that China is incapable of making a C-band module; at the turn of the decade, the PLA already has an AESA used for tracking artillery and mortar fire, and those things require X-band or Ku-band to be able to track shells. All this means is that an S-band module would be even less of a challenge than a C-band or an X-band module, the last requires significant miniaturization of its components.

My take is one that is the simplest and the least complicated.

Institute 14 NRIET has been developing radars, and has been developing an S-band AESA since the 1990s, competing with Institute 23, which developed the HQ-9 system. NRIET has since become the top radar institution in China, developing the radars for the J-8D, the J-10A/B/C, the J-11B, the FC-1, and J-20. Possibly for the J-11D too.

The Type 346 on the 052C has been S-band in the beginning, the Type 346A is an improved version of it, and the evolution goes forward with the Type 346B. They are building upon previous R/D work, evolving and improving in the process.

The use of the C-band engagement radar HT-233 does not necessarily mean the HQ-9 uses TVM/SARH. It only means the radar itself is using C-band. There might be issues why C-band is very very rarely used as an FCR and missile illumination radar, just about everyone else across every country and every company relies on X-band as an FCR and target illumination radar. Except for one distinct exception, and that is Raytheon with its MPQ-53 radar set for the Patriot system.

Maybe Raytheon has figured out something to let them use C-band for the Patriot, some secret sauce maybe. Its a hard sell that the Chinese figured the same thing out around the turn of the century, and even if they did, is it still better to use C-band over X-band. The reason why everyone else uses X-band is that its the best tool for the job.

For the HT-233 to use C-band, Western analysts assumed that the Chinese must have espionage this Raytheon. The intermediate culprits were the Israelis.

After the Coronavirus, I look back at this, and how people are so willing to believe in conspiracy theories, and evil Chinese stealing Western IP.

The problem with conspiracy theory is that the Chinese have their own engineers and even if they have stolen IP from Raytheon, the engineers still have to decide if C-band is still going to be better than X-band just for sheer technical merits, as use for fire control and missile illumination. The engineers still have the final say. Never mind that the Chinese has also gotten IP from the Russians and the French, all of whom whose fire control radars are X-band. For example, the Chinese has access to the S-300 FCR, the Flap Lid and Tombstone through their purchases. They also have access to the Russian S-300 and Buk missiles directly, from purchases. Its much easier to have reference models based on the Russian missiles that you already have than rely on espionaged information which maybe potentially unreliable, incomplete, and lacking a physical model to study.

The fact is when you look at the HQ-9 missile itself, it looks a lot more like the Russian 5V-55 missile used on the S-300 missile complex.

Now I go back to why the HT-233 was using C-band rather than X-band. Here is my explanation. A Flap Lid or Tombstone radar requires at least over 10,000 elements. This probably costs through the roof for the Chinese. In order to have a radar that match the range for a much lower cost, they choose to use C-band for the array to achieve the same range but using only 4,000 elements. The HT-233 has a horn feed that looks like a copy of the Flap Lid's, so it shows who the Chinese is copying really.

This still leaves you with the problem of TVM and SARH illumination of the missile. Did the Chinese figure this out for C-band? Here is another thing that came to my mind. Did the Chinese manage to master the trick of using C-band for fire control and target illumination? Maybe the HT-233 never had SARH illumination in the first place. Maybe what the Chinese really did was stuff an active guided seeker instead on the missile starting Day One. While ARH is more complex than SARH on the missile, it actually requires a less complex radar set up on the ground, eliminating the use of a long range illuminator that you have to add ICWI or FMCW circuits. This means a cheaper radar system on the ground, with the HT-233 being a purely pulse radar without any CWI circuit. You don't need to have a more powerful transmitter to compensate for the CWI which doesn't have the range of a pulse waveform.

As for S-band "power requirements", the Fregat or Top Plate radar can reach 300km on a bomber sized target and that's not a particularly powerful radar. Choosing S-band would be a shoo in for its cost --- requiring less elements than C-band, and achieving greater range for its cost.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
The use of the C-band engagement radar HT-233 does not necessarily mean the HQ-9 uses TVM/SARH. It only means the radar itself is using C-band. There might be issues why C-band is very very rarely used as an FCR and missile illumination radar, just about everyone else across every country and every company relies on X-band as an FCR and target illumination radar. Except for one distinct exception, and that is Raytheon with its MPQ-53 radar set for the Patriot system.

Maybe Raytheon has figured out something to let them use C-band for the Patriot, some secret sauce maybe. Its a hard sell that the Chinese figured the same thing out around the turn of the century, and even if they did, is it still better to use C-band over X-band. The reason why everyone else uses X-band is that its the best tool for the job.

What exactly is so difficult about using C-band for missile guidance? Doesn't it roughly just boil down to allowable antenna size? Given how large the HQ-9 missile is, fitting a C-band antenna is not an issue. I think the main reason why we see so many X-band guidance systems is that it facilitates reuse of technology.

If the HT-233 is anything like the Raytheon AN/MPQ-53 then it also has search, in addition to track and illuminate capability. Scale that up a bit, modify the waveguides for naval installation and what you have is a very capable PESA system on 052C. Wild speculation, of course.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Brumby is not basically incorrect. You can narrow or tighten the beam to prevent it from fanning out, or use very large antennas or both.

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The angular resolution characteristics of radar are determined by the antenna beamwidth represented by the
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which is defined by the half-power (-3 dB) points. The half-power points of the antenna radiation pattern (i.e. the -3 dB beamwidth) are normally specified as the limits of the antenna beamwidth for the purpose of defining angular resolution; two identical targets at the same distance are, therefore, resolved in angle if they are separated by more than the antenna -3 dB beamwidth.




True.

But this method is exploited by countermeasures. Forgive the bad spelling of the non English speaking writers of the research paper.

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It is very easy to calculate the beam diameter of a phased array antenna.

Each magnitude increase of radiation elements will add ten to the decibel of directional gain.
So, a 1000 element antenna will have 30 db directional gain.

It means that from 100 km the beam diameter will be 6 km.
With 4000 elements it will be 3 km at 100 km.

OF course it is just a thumb rule, the shape of the main lobe is complex than this, but the final result will be in this range.


Now, the phase sifters of the SPY-1B is 7 bit (A was 4 bit).

It means the resolution of the antenna beam steering electronics is 600 m at 100km .

See, the steering is five time more precise than the beam diameter.

So, the spy-1 can pinpoint a target into a not smaller than 600m spot from 100km, with monopulse.


Without that the area will be bigger. (hard to tell how big, it depends on the capability of radar to deferential between the different frequency/polarisation angular differences )

I can write down the calculation, but it is just basic high school math.
 
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