more upgraded Sovremenny

tphuang

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I certainly am not advocating more Sovs one way or the other. :) But if the Russians are desperate for some cash & willing to offer a good deal, in terms of price & tech. Maybe it's not a bad idea to buy a few more, which btw I agree is more rumour than fact now.
Provided of course such purchases don't distract resources from indigenous R&D.

At the present time, the Russians don't have any more tech that they can offer. Everything that China likes has already been copied and put on the current ships. In terms of price, there is no way they can build ships at the kind of value and workmanship offered by the much more competitive Chinese shipyards.

Well I think it's rumor too, but I also think it's possible. I guess tphuang means 052B?
no, 052B is a step in the right direction, it's at least using CODAG propulsion, has stealthy hull, good workmanship from JN.
cause 051C is mainly for long range air defence I think. China needs to expand her fleet badly, that's the reality.
051C is a complete mess, it still uses steam turbine, the hull is not stealthy. The much talked about rif doesn't even have the upgraded needed to intercept missiles. so, all the air defense against missiles is left to the two Type 730s. And because of the space taken up by rif, they got no space for a hangar. And then with that massive FCR, it still can only handle threats from 1 direction, on top of that, needs those additional air search radar, to the end that they only have enough space for 8 YJ-83s. So, you got the much talked about air defense, but the ASuW is downgraded to frigate level and the ASW is practically zero.
So I think something like Sov that has great SSM ability while able to protect itself against air attack is a good choice.
That's totally overrated. The Sunburns are big, don't fly as low as YJ-83s and YJ-62s. The 3M80MBE used higher flight path to achieve the greater range -> even easier to detect. So what does that mean? With bandstand clones going on 054A, even 054A has greater ASuW than the Sovs. And it's humongous RCS just makes it a even larger target for the anti-ship missiles.
 

szbd

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Well suppose to 2012, China needs 10 more destoyers. The current 6 needs further test till 2009, to finalize the design of the new ship, then China can only build 6 more till 2012. Where are the other 4? Sov is the only choice.

I thought you think Sov is no better than the best Chinese ship, so I mensioned 051C, didn't figure you look down on Sov so much. So you mean the Rif on 051C is basically useless? So what's the whole point of this ship? I don't think PLAN did such a stupid thing again after having so much trouble on 052.

BTW, I don't think China can produce CODAG now, so may be we didn't get enough from Ukrine.
 

tphuang

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Well suppose to 2012, China needs 10 more destoyers. The current 6 needs further test till 2009, to finalize the design of the new ship, then China can only build 6 more till 2012. Where are the other 4? Sov is the only choice.

I thought you think Sov is no better than the best Chinese ship, so I mensioned 051C, didn't figure you look down on Sov so much. So you mean the Rif on 051C is basically useless? So what's the whole point of this ship? I don't think PLAN did such a stupid thing again after having so much trouble on 052.

BTW, I don't think China can produce CODAG now, so may be we didn't get enough from Ukrine.
That's total bs, 052B/Cs have been in service for a while now. 051Cs are joining service too and it's not going to need more testing than the Sovs. Why does China need a certain number of destroyers by 2012? 054A right now is more capable than Sovs in every department other than ASW. There is simply no point in building more 052Bs and buying Sovs, when 054A can do their job better at lower cost. And how long do you think it takes the Russians to build 4 Sovs? Last time, it took them 4 years to complete contracts for 2 Sovs. And in the midst, 139 actually caught fire. 4 of them, no way they can finish and hand over and be commissionned by 2012. As we've see with 054A, we get 4 of them launched every 6 months.

CODAG, it's not an issue. If you don't have enough, get more from Ukraine or produce more on your own.

rif on 051C isn't useless, just overrated. As it stands, it can't engage missiles, it can only engage targets from 1 direction. It has SR-64, but only Type 730 uses it. With sea eagle as your VSR, it's not nearly powerful enough for a dedicated AAW (which is what 051C is supposed to be). It doesn't have a powerful MFR, which I think should be an requirement for any modern day AAW destroyer. It doesn't have the combat system or ECM/ESM has the level of 052C. And again, even for this, you are sacrificing ASW and ASuW capability to achieve that overrated AAW. I don't want to be negative about this ship, but there is nothing to get excited about.
 

szbd

Junior Member
In PLAN, a ship is in service doesn't mean the testing is finished. Well you've got a point, the production of Sov is not that reliable even if it's the best choice outside China. But since 138, 139 have a big change from 136 and 137, build more of them is still an option and just an option, that's all i'm saying. For CODAG, Ukrine may under the pressure of US, so it's not that easy to get it. China got LM2500 in 80s but still can't make a copy. Engine industry in China has always been disappointing.
 

planeman

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054A right now is more capable than Sovs in every department other than ASW. .
That's plainly incorrect. The Sovs have better SSM fit and more SAMs of similar capability. Not saying that the Type 054A isn't a world class modern Frigate but equal of the Sov in terms of overall capability it's not.
 

crobato

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The original Chinese text in question.



俄军消息人士表示 中国希望增购六艘现代 基络潜艇 拉达潜艇


  俄军消息人士表示,中国正与俄罗斯武器集团协商增购六艘现代级导弹驱逐舰。同时,俄罗斯联邦船舶集团潜艇部门已向中国介绍与提交“拉达”级潜艇的技术资料,中国希望再买四至六艘“基络”级潜艇,四至八艘“拉达”级潜艇,以平衡日本潜艇现代化战力。

据俄罗斯《红星卫报》报道,“拉达”677级潜艇是俄罗斯第四代常规潜艇,首艇2004年底下水,是十几年前的研水准,因政治动和缺乏资金,在俄罗斯独立後拖到今天才有希望找中国买家造完第二条“拉达”级潜艇。

  据称“拉达”级可发射鱼雷、导弹摧毁包括水面战舰、运输船、潜艇,也可在蛙人协助下置雷障。与 “基洛”级相比,“拉达”级无论是隐身性、机动性、探测能力还是攻防能力,都略胜一筹。

据俄方宣传;“拉达”级的噪声水准比“基洛”级877型还要低8分贝,降到110分贝左右。不过,比美国的海狼级核潜艇的95分贝还差得远。而有分析指,在引进现代级导弹驱逐舰後,中国国产“神盾舰”已实比俄舰的电子水准高一筹,没必要再高价买旧货。

分析指出,有了国产元级潜艇和AIP技术的运用,“基洛”级和“拉达”级在中国不再有市场。因此关於中国增购潜艇的消息值得推敲。也有消息指,二郎山频繁向中国抛媚眼显然是希望中国海军充斥苏俄的舰艇,永远为俄军的高新武器研究提供资金。

据悉,“拉达”677级潜艇标排1765吨,水下排水量2600吨,最大潜航速21节,水面航速10节,极限潜深250米,3节时潜航航程650海,通气管状态下7节续航力为4000海,自持力45天,水下继航能力为650海/3节。



源自互联网

google translation.


Russian military source said China hopes that the purchase of six submarines, modern Russian Lada submarine-based news network said that the Chinese group consultations with the Russian arms purchase six Sovremenny-class guided missile destroyers. Meanwhile, the Russian Federation, China Shipping Group has introduced the submarine sector and the introduction of "Lada" class submarines technical information. China hopes to buy four to six ships a "network" class submarines, four to eight vessels, "Lada" class submarines, Japanese submarine combat capability to balance modernization. According to the Russian "Red Star Guardian" reported that "Lada" 677-class submarine is the fourth generation of conventional submarines of Russia, The first boat launched by the end of 2004, more than 10 years ago the standard of research, and lack of funds for political action. In Russia there is hope after independence until today to find Chinese buyers said second End of "Lada" class submarines. Alleged "Lada" class capable of launching torpedoes, surface warships, including the destruction of missiles, ships, submarines, divers can also help home in the barrier. "Kilo" class, "Lada" class is stealth, maneuverability and the ability to detect or offensive and defensive capabilities. all edge. According to Russian propaganda; "Lada" noise level standards than the "Kilo" class 877 lower-8 dB. dropped to 110 decibels. However, the Seawolf-class submarines than the United States is substantially less than 95 decibels. And some analysts pointed out that the introduction of modern class missile destroyers, Chinese-made "Aegis" destroyer than the Russian ships have electronic standards higher than is no need to re-bought at the higher stuff. The analysis pointed out that technology has made million-class submarines and the use of AIP. "Kilo" class and the "Lada" class in China will no longer have a market. So the news on China's purchase of submarines worth weighing. Sources also pointed out that this section is obviously lavished praise frequently to the Soviet Union flooded the Chinese Navy ships will provide funds for Russian high-tech weapons. Reportedly, "Lada" 677-class submarines superscript Pai 1765 tons displacement of 2,600 tons, the largest in terms of speed of 21. surface speed of 10 knots, the maximum diving depth of 250 meters, 650 sea voyage submerged three sections. 7 cruising tube under the sea for 4000, sustainability of 45 days following the flight capacity of 650 Sea underwater section 3.

From the Internet
 

tphuang

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In PLAN, a ship is in service doesn't mean the testing is finished. Well you've got a point, the production of Sov is not that reliable even if it's the best choice outside China. But since 138, 139 have a big change from 136 and 137, build more of them is still an option and just an option, that's all i'm saying. For CODAG, Ukrine may under the pressure of US, so it's not that easy to get it. China got LM2500 in 80s but still can't make a copy. Engine industry in China has always been disappointing.
052B/C are doing very well right now. Since you think 138/9 improved that much, why don't you talk about it?
The entire stuff about Ukraine falling to US pressure is just a Chinese forum myth. No evidence of that at all. As for their domestic turbine capability, I posted it very clearly in the China naval power thread a while back. I suggest that you go read it before continuing.
That's plainly incorrect. The Sovs have better SSM fit and more SAMs of similar capability. Not saying that the Type 054A isn't a world class modern Frigate but equal of the Sov in terms of overall capability it's not.
according to propoganda, yeah. Looking more closely, YJ-83 used by JH-7A achieved hits on 42/43 attempts, whereas Sunburn has 60 to 80% hit rate according to sinodefense. Frankly, the hit rate is pathetic for sunburn. Due to its larger size, it just simply can't turn as well as YJ-83. In order to achieve the longer range (comparable with YJ-83), it had to go a higher flight path. Which means it's far easier to be detected. Even travelling at the same altitude, it is far larger, making the detection for easier. And frankly, with the Aegis system, shooting something down travelling mach2-2.5 is not an issue. So basically, you have the same # of missiles, with bandstand, having similar range, but far easier to be detected than YJ-83, which is a true sea-skimmer.

And if we look at AAW, 054A's Sea Eagle should be superior in performance to top plate (since they basically took top plate and improved on it), they got SR-64 whose main use is for tracking sea skimmers, giving 054A the ability to locate and shoot down sea skimmers at the edge of the HH-16 range. And then you got a VLS system which allows for faster response time. You got AK-176m, which is a far better air defense main gun than AK-130. And I'm arguing this assuming parity between HH-16 vs 9M317 and 730 vs kashtan, which I don't think is the case.

And then there is the whole issue of stealthiness, which really can't be compared.
 

szbd

Junior Member
I don't know the detail of improvement on 138 and 139. I just said "big change", it can be seen from the pix right? For Ukrine engine, of course they won't announce they won't sell it to China because of US pressure. But China had enough of this kind of thing, like the Falcom from Isreal. So I said "may" have this kind of problem. Otherwise why China built 115 and 116?

I'll go read your posts on ship building now, thx.
 

crobato

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The 138 and 139 are quite improved. Russia has also offered to upgrade 136 and 137 to the same standards. In addition to the longer ranged SSM, there are improvements in the radar and fire control; use of Shtil-1 instead of just Shtil; addition of Kashtans; and the addition of a radar on the back.

The Sovs make good well rounded destroyers. I also like their brutish, Cold War look. These are ships that are pleasant to the eye for the nasty reasons.

But while the possibility of 6 new Sovs may be discussed, many things are against it, starting with HJT's policy to rely more on domestic equipment. The construction took too long and there was all sorts of scandal to go with it. And the cost is too expensive. If the Russians want to win some contracts, they really have to make some serious assurances to the Chinese.
 
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