Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

IDonT said:

The difference between a "guided" artillery round and a ballistic round that you are proposing is that artillery is an area effect weapon. Yes it can take out fix targets with pin point accuracy but those targets are fixed and do not move which makes it easier to adjust.

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Sure, if you're firing traditional rounds but with guided ones it does not matter whether target is moving or not as long as the target remains within manouver envelope. AFAIK, but i'm not sure, Copperhead, Krasnopol, Excalibur and Strix guided rounds can be used against moving targets.

IDonT said:

However, the energy of the speed of re-entry of these warheads are extremely high and you would not get the same freedom of movement like a cruise missile would. This is even problem is even compounded if your intended target is moving at 30 knots.

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Speed has to be reduced as it is with below mentioned manouverable Russian re-entry vehicles. On the other hand, the problem with speed goes both ways, as speedy projectile also means that the target ship won't have much time for evasive manouvers. A ship moving at 30kts moves just 15 metres per second.

There's also one bitchy thing with use of ballistic missiles. One conventional IRBM warhead can be counted to effectively to be able to at least mission kill an aircraft carrier. Even with pure kinetic energy the effects would be quite large. This, combined with speed of a BM, would make it a very challenging target to intercept.

Let me assure that I don't consider a anti-ship ballistic missile, such as reported DF-21 variants, wonder weapons at all, merely perhaps the most credible anti-carrier weapon to have been evolved in long time. For many reasons, such as very short reaction time, long range, easiness of co-ordination and effective use of manpower, it would seem to promise much better way to deal with carriers than Soviet SSGN / long-range bomber combo.

Of course AS BM's will be merely an another weapon in endless weapon-counter-weapon race. It can be intercepted or spoofed or it can get through. For countermeasures USN is in process of introducing SM-3 and will soon introduce SM-6 for BM defence.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Popeye, Bluejacket and Obi Wan, what do you normally find on the deck during a FOD walkdown and how many things lie around there?

If you add those small jets around the warheads CG (like i.e. on Asters) to change tracjorety perpendicular(?) to the flightpath, you might achive some usefull results, IMO.
A nice version would perhaps be BMs carrying conventional AShMs to the target area.
But I think both thoughts come rather expensive.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Scratch said:

Popeye, Bluejacket and Obi Wan, what do you normally find on the deck during a FOD walkdown and how many things lie around there?

If you add those small jets around the warheads CG (like i.e. on Asters) to change tracjorety perpendicular(?) to the flightpath, you might achive some usefull results, IMO.
A nice version would perhaps be BMs carrying conventional AShMs to the target area.
But I think both thoughts come rather expensive.

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I am thinking ballistic missiles with MIRV's that carry conventional warheads with drag systems attached that open upon re-entry, to slow decent. The missile will release the warheads in the vicinity of the carrier, where a guidance system (radar and infra-red) would locate the target, and once the target is located, the drag systems are released and the warhead will home in on the targets the warheads have acquired.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Popeye, Bluejacket and Obi Wan, what do you normally find on the deck during a FOD walkdown and how many things lie around there?

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Small things. Screws, very small pieces of metal, paper, string, safety wire, small clumps of dirt..those sort of things. I found a feather once. That was on shore at NAS North Island.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

bd popeye said:

Small things. Screws, very small pieces of metal, paper, string, safety wire, small clumps of dirt..those sort of things. I found a feather once. That was on shore at NAS North Isalnd.

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I remember our XO threatening to secure all vending machines after finding a candy wrapper on the flight deck. On land strips, there are smalll rocks, pieces of rubber & vegetation, etc. They do those walkdowns in hangars also, to preven migrating FOD on footwear coming out to the flight line. But even if an Il-76 is FODed on takeoff I doubt it would be catastophic- that plane has 4 BIG engines and it can take off on any 2- what are the chances of FODing 3 or all 4 engines at the same time? Nil!

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Hi first post!

Ok if i was the opposing commander what i willl do is this...

OBJECTIVE: Sink Carrier
RESOURCES: 100+/- old missiles, 30+/- bombers and fighters, alot of launch platforms
SCENARIO:Strait of Tawian or Gulf of Iran

Modify some old surface to surface/air to surface missiles, remove the warhead and attach some knid of aircraft transponder, the transponder should mimc something big, like a bomber. have alot of these missiles (also if possible attach jamming device)

Have one group (30+) bomber or surface plaforms to launch SOME of the dummy missiles at the battle group. Since the battle group have patrol aircraft (AWAC, fighters, etc...) on station the aircraft CIC will divert the fighters to intercept the incoming "bombers" = dummy missiles.

Have another group (40+) launch at another direction, battle group CIC will divert another group of just launch fighters to intercept the "bombers", since the orignal fighters that are up or need refeuling is out of the way

By now the battle group will ether...

Have another group (30+) launch at another direction, and againthe battle group CIC will divert another group fighters to intercept the "bombers". The problem is that the battle group CIC will be smarter now, they know that the enemy is trying to draw out its fighters

This time launch real antiship missiles (Exocet, Silkworm, rocks, whatever etc...) from air platforms(30+/- bombers, fighters). Make sure the to have strong air cover for the platform. The battle group CIC this time will be sure. When launching the missiles, launch the missiles 100+/- meters apart. The reason why is that the battle group radar will see it as one contact. if possible launch 100+/- missiles at a time. (if extra launch also remaining "dummy" missiles)

The battle group remaining fighters or none will scramble to meet the 3rd wave. The first two wave of fighters will....

The battle group surface combatants will (Ticonderoga class, Arleigh Burke class) will try to shoot down the missiles, remember to no let the fighters and launch platforms in weapon range of battle group.

Last of all have 10+/- fighters carry anti ship missile at another direction skimmming on the wave top and launch at the carrier.

The battle group surface combatants will ethier...

The reason why to have fighters protecting the airborne platforms is....

But at the end the battle group will be overwhelm, and carrier sinked

CONCLUSION: the carrier will be sunk, also the possibility of the escorts sunk or damage. The battle group carrier fighters will have no place to land, easy picking for further strikes.
NOTE: numbers may vary depending the oposing commander resource and the battle group strength. Also don't recommand using rocks

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Welcome to the board!

That sounds very like the scenario in Red Storm Rising when a force of Soviet Tu-95 and Tu-16 and Tu-22M bombers attacked a Franco-American carrier force consisting of Nimitz, Saratoga and Foch escorting an amphibious group to Iceland. The task force was located from their radar emissions by the Tu-95's who relayed the information to the strike groups. One group consisted of Tu-16's armed with obsolete Kelt missiles that had radar transponders to make them mimic the Tu-16's. They were launched towards the task group and succeeded in getting a bonehead of an admiral to send all his Tomcats after the Kelts. While they wasted their Phoenix missiles shooting down drones, the Tu-22M's were able to approach and shoot their missiles unopposed. As there was no fighter cover to thin out the incoming missiles, they saturated the escorts and succeed in sinking Foch and severely damaging Nimitz and Saratoga so much that they were out of the war for several weeks.

Your scenario seems very plausible but in real life I don't think the USN would be so obliging as they were in the book, they've probably been through similar scenarios in training. It also showed something that's been discussed earlier in this thread, namely carriers, especially Nimitz class carriers are designed to take a huge amount of punishment and are very difficult to physically sink. But you don't need to sink it, depleting it's airgroup or getting a hit on the flight deck can put a carrier out of action for a time and that can tip the balance in your favour.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Hi duckytank...I'm bd popeye..I actually served on 5 USN CV(N)s. Kennedy, Midway, Hancock, America & Nimitz.

Let's see..

Your scenario seems very plausible but in real life I don't think the USN would be so obliging as they were in the book, they've probably been through similar scenarios in training.

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100% correct! The USN is in a constant state of real world training. Almost every possible sceniaro has been planned & trained for.

Modify some old surface to surface/air to surface missiles, remove the warhead and attach some kind of aircraft transponder, the transponder should mimc something big, like a bomber. have alot of these missiles (also if possible attach jamming device)

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Unless those missiles have some majical way of fooling radar sensors their true sizes will be reveled. The emmissons from the transponders will be recognized for what they are. Fakes. Those signals cannot 100% duplicate the aircraft they are trying to mimic.

Have one group (30+) bomber or surface plaforms to launch SOME of the dummy missiles at the battle group. Since the battle group have patrol aircraft (AWAC, fighters, etc...) on station the aircraft CIC will divert the fighters to intercept the incoming "bombers" = dummy missiles.

Have another group (40+) launch at another direction, battle group CIC will divert another group of just launch fighters to intercept the "bombers", since the orignal fighters that are up or need refeuling is out of the way

By now the battle group will ether...
move away from the "bombers"
battle group fighters report in shooting at dummies

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Won't work. Because they will be recognized as fakes as soon as though transponders signal are decifered as fake. Mere minutes.

Have another group (30+) launch at another direction, and again the battle group CIC will divert another group fighters to intercept the "bombers". The problem is that the battle group CIC will be smarter now, they know that the enemy is trying to draw out its fighters

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No it won't. Because the fakes have already been discovered.

This time launch real antiship missiles (Exocet, Silkworm, rocks, whatever etc...) from air platforms(30+/- bombers, fighters). Make sure the to have strong air cover for the platform. The battle group CIC this time will be sure. When launching the missiles, launch the missiles 100+/- meters apart. The reason why is that the battle group radar will see it as one contact. if possible launch 100+/- missiles at a time. (if extra launch also remaining "dummy" missiles)

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Aegis, will track shoot down most missles. The ECM emitted by E/A-6B Prowlers and Aegis ships will call cause confusing havoc with any sort of device the PLA may use that relys on electronics. Not to mention the Chaff despensed by USN ships and aircraft.

You also mentioned the USN CVN aircraft would run out of ordance? Do you have any idea how much ordance a USN CV(N) can carry? There is enough ordance on board for 5-7 days of 24 hours around the clock operations. Fuel? Enough aircraft fuel on a CVN for about 5 days of continous operations.

First off the USN will not be duped by any such sceniaro. Period. So from the start your sceniaro is not plausable to me. Would some missiles get through? Maybe. But conventional weapons will not sink a CVN. Mission kill it. Maybe . But sink it? Not in my opinion.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

hi

Thanks POPEYE, your points are a real eye opener. Im a neebie at this!, can't join the navy yet!! underage hahah

Today i ponder on it more and found out problems. The scenerio is based on books that i read, borrowed from the libarary and form the internet. Most of the books are based around the 1980ish era. The US navy is now more modern now, especialy, i read this magazine called Janes Defence monthly or Weekly said the US navy upgraded the AEGIS program and the CIWS weapons.
You say you where in the navy cool!!! and a carrier!!! what knid of personal are you? where you a Commander!!!!
Well back on the sinking the carrier thing, the problem was that US Sat. and intel agency will notice a huge build up of weapons on the coast. And if they know, they will keep far away.
Well thanks and to other people who commited

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

...I hear it requires at least 7 AS-6 Kingfish ASM's or 5 650mm torps....Pretty tall order.....