Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

there are alot of things simulations can do these days.
US nuclear warheads (also much of Russia/China/France's Nuclear weapons program) are designed primarily with similation + validation/correlation with sub-critical tests. and they are expected to work.

I don't see how one can doubt a AshBM citing that they have yet to do an operational test shots therefore it is not operational.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

At the terminal stage of targeting, it's not so much the speed of the carrier in a fixed forward direction that's of concern. Rather, what's more of a concern is the speed at which the carrier is able to change direction during a turn while trying to evade from a missile.

It follows in this sense that the end portion of the spinning platform could be used to simulate the turning of a carrier. And looking at the platform, the end portion of the platform probably would have no problem turning as fast as a carrier could.

So, in my opinion, if they were to further simulate the radar reflectivity, this is quite close to the real thing.

Good point. The purpose of the rotating plate makes a lot more sense now.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

one can similarly argue that US BMD effort are not really far forward and "operational either", as none of the test conducted were with a zero-warning/ cold-start interception against a real operational ballistic missile with a live war head and serious penetration aid.
We can each say whatever we want. The fact is, operational tests have been performed in one case, and the missiles are deployed and at sea. This was at tremendous cost so the US planners and technical reviewers and the command chain (and oversight) had to believe they were worthy of being deployed operationally.

The Chinese anti-shipping balistic missile has not had such operational tests to date and is not deployed.

As I said, before deployment I believe the Chinese will conduct live-fire operational tests, just as the US has done. And when they do, the US will be aware of it (along with Russia, Britian, etc. - those with the detection capability). When their planners and technical reviewers and command chain feel the system is worthy of it, they will deploy it operationally as well...also costing a lot of money. But I do not believe it will be deployed before that happens.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

I hope you are not trying to insult me. Really. I'd never insult you. Don't read into my post. I'm not denying anything. If I did I'd post that.

Why would you think I was trying to insult you? :confused:

As my entire last post showed, you can simulate a realistic 'moving' target perfectly well with a rotating target inland, so I do not see the massive deal in this insistence that the test has to be against a moving ship or else its 'hull and void'. The null and void part in particular seems pretty arbitrary and unreasonable, which is what made me think there might have been a hint of denial.

We are all human and sometimes we don't see things with perfect clarity and objectivity without realize or meaning to, especially when it concerns things near and dear to our hearts. Nothing particularly unusual or shameful about it, we have all been there and done that at some point. Is it really an insult to point it out when you feel someone is behaving a little irrationally and unreasonable in their position? Maybe I could have been more tactful with my choice of words, but there was certainly no intention to insult, merely calling it as I see it.

All the theories are nice but as a layman I want to see some practical application. Now the bottom line is I want to see is the missile in action against a moving target at sea against some sort of semblance of ECM. That's all.

Again, why this obsession with a sea based moving target? Even at max speed, a carrier would not be moving anywhere close to fast enough to make any meaningful difference to a ASBM's chances of successful impact once the weapon is in the re-entry phase (also when the missile's own seeker comes into play). Thus the biggest challenge a moving target would present is how well the missile responds to mid-course course updates. But as the example I gave previously shows, that element of the weapon could be tested perfectly well with only a very simple process.

ECM is also something the PLA focuses greatly on, but even if there was a sea based test, no-one will know if there was any ECM unless the Chinese came out and told us, which they are not likely to do, so its a bit of an unrealistic demand.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

We can each say whatever we want. The fact is, operational tests have been performed in one case, and the missiles are deployed and at sea. This was at tremendous cost so the US planners and technical reviewers and the command chain (and oversight) had to believe they were worthy of being deployed operationally.

The Chinese anti-shipping balistic missile has not had such operational tests to date and is not deployed.

As I said, before deployment I believe the Chinese will conduct live-fire operational tests, just as the US has done. And when they do, the US will be aware of it (along with Russia, Britian, etc. - those with the detection capability). When their planners and technical reviewers and command chain feel the system is worthy of it, they will deploy it operationally as well...also costing a lot of money. But I do not believe it will be deployed before that happens.

Which one are you referring to THAAD, National Missile Defense, Aegis missile defense SM3.

I figure SM3 is probably the one that is assigned to protect the CBG. But SM3 is work in progress and they haven't finished testing until 2015. The result is less than satisfactory . They set the bar so low in order to get funding and continue with the program

Technically Detailed Description of
Flaws in the SM-3 and GMD Missile Defense Systems
Revealed by the Defense Department’s Ballistic Missile Test Data
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


sm3miss.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

This is from another thread, but is seems more appropriate here.

They will have to test it before they pour money (and a lot of it) into deploying it. They can try and keep such a test a secret from the press...and perhaps succeed. They will not be able to keep it a secret from a nation like the US who will detect a ballitic missile launch and track it.

So how will the US tell such a test apart from a standard BM test firing? The Chinese are not fools and would not choose to conduct the test when there are US spy sats over the test range. The US might be able to detect the launch and get a track, but they will not get a look see of what the test was about till another spy sat passes over. It's the simplest thing in the world to plan a test to maximize the time till a spy sat passes over next, and use that time to cover up the results.

Hell, for such an important test that could be a real 'game changer' (to use LockMart talk), it's probably worth while to coincide the ASBM test with, oh I don't know, maybe a laser ASAT dazzler test to prevent snooping spysats from seeing the scene till the evidence have been covered up?

Did you not wonder at the time why the Chinese would be conducting laser dazzler tests against foreign spy sats? I mean, to fully assess how effective the system was, surely it would be best to know what the precise effects were on the targeted satellite? And I for one doubt that the US would be as accommodating as to give the Chinese the telemetry data from the dazzler so they can assess its effectiveness.

No, to best test such a dazzler, you test it out against one of your own spy sats first. Both to better refine it as well as to make sure it doesn't do any permanent damage to the satellite. The Americans might be willing to stop at just complaining if one of their birds doesn't get to see what they want it to see, but they would be unlikely to be so meek if their bird was damaged or rendered inoperable from such an incident.

As to the defense against it, the US (and others) are already well along in that portion. The newer versions of AEGIS have a BMD component which has been tested many times successfully against incoming ballistic missile RVs. The US already has missiles deployed that can shoot down incoming ballistic missiles. They are already testing (and successfully) the use of lasers for defense purposes, and at some point will begin testing charged particle beams for the same.

So, the defenses against just this sort of attack are already in place and getting stronger.

BMD's effectiveness is far from proven, and has certainly not demonstrated any interceptions of missiles that will be traveling as fast as a DF21 in terminal phase.

What more, BMD requires the defenders to go active to track the target. As soon as they do that, they will have bigger problems than ASBMs as the entire PLAAF and PLANAF will be scrambling to shoot as many AShMs at the CBG as they could loft, which is more than what any CBG could hope to intercept.

If all the PLA has to do to scare the USN into voluntarily revealing its position is to randomly shoot some DF21s at the sea, I think they would be happy to oblige. Would a CBG commander risk ordering his ships to keep their radars off when he gets notified by the pentagon that they have detected IRBM launches heading his way? If he keeps the radars off and an ASBM is real, even a 100% effective BMD system is pointless. But if he lights up, he opens himself up for a more dangerous attack, as the PLA decides when to launch those missiles, and could have a massive strike package airborne and waiting for co-ordinates when the start firing off those DF21s.

As I have stress time and again, ASBM, if it exists, its not a magic silver bullet that will win a war all by itself. What it does is boost the overall anti-carrier capabilities of entire PLA, and as demonstrated above, complements and enhances the effectiveness of existing weapons systems.

Nonetheless, such a capability, if it existed, to successfully hit a moving warship at sea with a ballistic missile would be a very strong capability and one that retains, even with the defenses, some chance of success. But the Chinese, IMHO, are a long ways from an operational weapon system. When they actually perform a test, shooting a ballistic missile out to sea at a moving vessel (which they will simply not be able to hide) and hit it, then we will know that they are proceeding towards operational deployment.

If past precedent is any indication, when the Chinese shoot an ASBM at a sea based moving target, they would have already operationally deployed the weapon system, maybe years ago and are working on something else.

The PLA does not follow the American pattern of public testing. For the Chinese, public testing is about displaying an operational weapon's capability to world as opposed to a step in making that weapons system operational. Development tests would be done in secret and covered up as much as possible. Such Chinese public tests are often politically motivated and intended to send a message and has nothing to do with developmental requirements.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

We can each say whatever we want. The fact is, operational tests have been performed in one case, and the missiles are deployed and at sea. This was at tremendous cost so the US planners and technical reviewers and the command chain (and oversight) had to believe they were worthy of being deployed operationally.

The Chinese anti-shipping balistic missile has not had such operational tests to date and is not deployed.

As I said, before deployment I believe the Chinese will conduct live-fire operational tests, just as the US has done. And when they do, the US will be aware of it (along with Russia, Britian, etc. - those with the detection capability). When their planners and technical reviewers and command chain feel the system is worthy of it, they will deploy it operationally as well...also costing a lot of money. But I do not believe it will be deployed before that happens.

same argument can be applied to US nuclear warheads.
there hasn't a live-fire operational test with US Nuclear war heads for a while now.
Those things decay over time. how do you know they are good?
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

What more, BMD requires the defenders to go active to track the target. As soon as they do that, they will have bigger problems than ASBMs as the entire PLAAF and PLANAF will be scrambling to shoot as many AShMs at the CBG as they could loft, which is more than what any CBG could hope to intercept.


That's an interesting point. One could easily design an system which is essentially a anti-radiation missile on sterorids.

also, AsHBM doesn't have to be a traditional ballistic war head...
They can easily design a re-entry pouch that release submunitions in size of radar guided 100 lb SDBs.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

same argument can be applied to US nuclear warheads.
there hasn't a live-fire operational test with US Nuclear war heads for a while now.
Those things decay over time. how do you know they are good?

Not true.
1) There is a Worldwide ban on testing nuclear weapons.
2) As a person that formerly handled weapons of all types I can assure that US nuclear weapons are kept in a 100% climate controled environment. They last for years upon years. Fact.
 

cataphract

New Member
Re: Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

Which one are you referring to THAAD, National Missile Defense, Aegis missile defense SM3.

I figure SM3 is probably the one that is assigned to protect the CBG. But SM3 is work in progress and they haven't finished testing until 2015. The result is less than satisfactory . They set the bar so low in order to get funding and continue with the program

Technically Detailed Description of
Flaws in the SM-3 and GMD Missile Defense Systems
Revealed by the Defense Department’s Ballistic Missile Test Data

That would be necessary to intercept a Nuclear tipped ballistic missile, but to stop an AShBM, it only needs to damage, or change the trajectory of the missile. So these would still be valid hits.
 
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