Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Roger604

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

To project power beyond the immediate periphery, China needs an LHD that can be loaded with at least 12 large sized helicopter UAVs, each of them with phased array radar. (This might require below deck storage.) The UAVs must be capable of conducting patrols around 300 km away from the LHD. In combat, they would be able to cover a huge swath of airspace with their radars (especially if they can climb to a decent altitude).

The LHD should have at least 40 long range active guided SAMs (similar to Aster-30) and around 160 close range semi-active SAMs (like ESSM quad-pack). The LHD itself should have high mast mounted radars to look down the horizon. Point defense weapons would be CIWS and copies of RAM (like the ones in the photos).

This would be matched with a destroyer class ship packing around 12 DF-21C class ASBM and around 12 DF-15 class ASBM. They would be used for long-range anti-ship. It should also have 32 anti-ship cruise missiles that are similar to Klub. For land attack, it should have at least 32 LACM. It should also have the same point defense weapons.

The battle group also needs a frigate with a large manned ASW helicopter and its own suite of sophisticated towed sonars. The frigate should have a high mast mounted radar and at least 32 close range semi-active SAMs. The frigate should be capable of some mine warfare and anti-mine too. It should also have the same point defense weapons.

Finally, the battle group needs a nuclear powered submarine for protection, powered by pump jet. If a mission calls for it, an SSGN may be swapped in for an additional 60 or so LACM.

And of course a bonus for a battle group like this is it provides important offshore defense against stealth bombers where otherwise land-based bistatic radars cannot operate.

Of course something like this would be far down the line for PLAN, like in the 2014 timeframe.

Roger , I moved your post here from the "How Do You Sink A Carrier?" thread. If you want me to move it back just let me know.

bd popeye

From Roger604 to popeye,
I should have made it clearer in my post, but it was directed toward the "How to Sink a Carrier" thread. Basically, I was saying you need another carrier to sink a carrier in open waters. I would appreciate it if you could move my post back. Thanks!
 
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marclees

New Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Really?? They have to penatrate the air defence shield first. Not an easy task. Bulk carriers and skyscrapers are not Aircraft Carriers.

.

There is another perception that it will be extremely difficult to penetrate the outer ring of the USN F18 Air defence CAP ; again , the reality is very different .

According to the US Air Force , the US Fighter Jets has already lost its edge on BVR Missile range . An F-18 Super Hornet with AIM 120 Amraam will likely be blown out of the sky by a J-11B with PL12 or a Mig 29/Su30 with AA12 ; after all , the PL12 has a greater BVR kill zone.

Once the F18 CAP is taken out , the AShMs can be leisurely launched out of the range of the SM2. When the SM2s are exhausted....




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Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

There is another perception that it will be extremely difficult to penetrate the outer ring of the USN F18 Air defence CAP ; again , the reality is very different .

According to the US Air Force , the US Fighter Jets has already lost its edge on BVR Missile range . An F-18 Super Hornet with AIM 120 Amraam will likely be blown out of the sky by a J-11B with PL12 or a Mig 29/Su30 with AA12 ; after all , the PL12 has a greater BVR kill zone.

Once the F18 CAP is taken out , the AShMs can be leisurely launched out of the range of the SM2. When the SM2s are exhausted....




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Problem; there is a slight issue of FINDING a target that knows exactly where you are, and your limitations. Also, AIM-120C7 (the latest block) has more range (105km vs 70km), and has better counter ECM capabilities. Furthermore, the AIM-120D just entered full production; this one has a range of 165km.

The US is not standing still; you are assuming that the US will stop innovating and stay static. This is a dangerous assumption to make. For example, the USN is fitting the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fleet with a brand new AESA radar. The Russians and the Chinese are either still using PESA (a dead end radar technology), or a mechanically scanned array. Although the Russians and the Chinese are working on AESA arrays, this will take some time, which is time for the US to again, leap further ahead.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Problem; there is a slight issue of FINDING a target that knows exactly where you are, and your limitations. Also, AIM-120C7 (the latest block) has more range (105km vs 70km), and has better counter ECM capabilities. Furthermore, the AIM-120D just entered full production; this one has a range of 165km.

The US is not standing still; you are assuming that the US will stop innovating and stay static. This is a dangerous assumption to make. For example, the USN is fitting the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fleet with a brand new AESA radar. The Russians and the Chinese are either still using PESA (a dead end radar technology), or a mechanically scanned array. Although the Russians and the Chinese are working on AESA arrays, this will take some time, which is time for the US to again, leap further ahead.

I can't stay away! :eek:

Correct..Pointblank.

In these discussions I always point out the USN ECM emitted by E/A-6B Prowlers and Arliegh Burke destroyers will reek havoc on any enemies electronics. Very difficult to fight a war if your electronics are going haywire.

Sea Dog posted this over three years ago about an possible air attack on an USN CVN..

Basically for a J-10/J-11 strike against a carrier you would need to get through multi-layered E-2 and E-3 surveillance, forward deployed Fleet Air Defence, AEGIS SAG's layering protection fields, and electronic attacks and jamming from EA-6B. Plus the J-11's do not have the range to afly out and attack a carrier that's over 600 Nm off shore. They would need to fly within 300 Nm just to be within range to launch the missile and U.S. air surveillance would see it coming the entire way. And you would need to coordinate your attack for maxiumum effectiveness. Let's make this clear, it's easy to see when multiple J-10's and J-11's are taking off and where they're headed to. U.S. surveillance methods have that totally covered. So this hypothetical attack is a pipe-dream......
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Plus the J-11's do not have the range to afly out and attack a carrier that's over 600 Nm off shore.

At 600nm, the carrier wont' be in any position to intervene in China's affairs either. Super Hornets will have considerably less range than J-11s.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The US is not standing still; you are assuming that the US will stop innovating and stay static. This is a dangerous assumption to make. For example, the USN is fitting the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fleet with a brand new AESA radar. The Russians and the Chinese are either still using PESA (a dead end radar technology), or a mechanically scanned array. Although the Russians and the Chinese are working on AESA arrays, this will take some time, which is time for the US to again, leap further ahead.

PB, being ECM resistant has nothing to do with antenna design. Modern TWTs are as frequency agile as any AESA emitter, and enjoy the advantage of an even wider frequency range because AESA emitters are band limited by the kind of compound used for their substrate.
 

Kongo

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

At 600nm, the carrier wont' be in any position to intervene in China's affairs either. Super Hornets will have considerably less range than J-11s.
If range was all that mattered then the range of the Backfires along with their missile's range would have made the Soviet Union invulnerable to the carrier battle group.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

If range was all that mattered then the range of the Backfires along with their missile's range would have made the Soviet Union invulnerable to the carrier battle group.

Which is true, especially if the SU planned to use nukes with those Backfires.

That's why you got Tomcats with long range and even longer interception missiles.

You don't have Tomcats today. Super Hornets have much shorter range than these.
 

Kongo

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Which is true, especially if the SU planned to use nukes with those Backfires.

Not true. You need to find out more.

You don't have Tomcats today. Super Hornets have much shorter range than these.

You don't seem to know that the Superhornet loiter times actually exceed that of the Tomcat in the Fleet Air Defense mission? :nana: With a loadout of 6 AAMs, the F-14 has a loiter time on station of 1.91 hours, while the SuperHornet has a loiter time of 2.25 hours. Both are at 150nm from the carrier. Similarly the SuperHornet's range in the fighter escort role exceeds that of the F-14.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Not true. You need to find out more.



You don't seem to know that the Superhornet loiter times actually exceed that of the Tomcat in the Fleet Air Defense mission? :nana: With a loadout of 6 AAMs, the F-14 has a loiter time on station of 1.91 hours, while the SuperHornet has a loiter time of 2.25 hours. Both are at 150nm from the carrier. Similarly the SuperHornet's range in the fighter escort role exceeds that of the F-14.

Furthermore, the Super Hornet has a better bringback capability at advertised capability than the F-14... If the F-14 was to operate with all 6 AIM-54's and 2 AIM-9's, they had to drop the AIM-54's before they could land. As such, F-14's usually had a loadout of 2 AIM-54's, 4 AIM-7's and 2 AIM-9's to stay under landing weight limits on a carrier.
 
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