Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: How do you sink a carrier

Hendrik_2000 said:
...article by JDW and Anyone still doubting that China has the technology to hit a slow moving target they should go to Zhuhai and see it for themselves. Now this is export version I bet they have more potent version for their own use
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DF21 D will have similar technology like this
Click to expand...

You know, a couple of unenhanced DF21D test fire videos, showing successful strikes of large slow moving objects at sea would put the matter to rest. Right...?
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: How do you sink a carrier

Blackstone said:
You know, a couple of unenhanced DF21D test fire videos, showing successful strikes of large slow moving objects at sea would put the matter to rest. Right...?
Click to expand...

And why would they do that and deprived themselves of the element of surprise and allow the other side to observe, record and develop counter measure. Unlike conventional weapon like J 15, Liaoning. ASBM is a strategic weapon. You hold to the last minute and launch it when the opfor least suspected
 
Kurt

Kurt

Junior Member
nemo said:
seems like changing trajectory by changing center of mass (moving mass inside projectile to change center of mass).
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With liquids inside it's possible to pump them to different tanks while they serve as oxydizer/fuel at the same time. Inertia in an accelerating missile can be used for pumping.
The V-2 already had simple thrust-vectoring via a moveable fire resistant brick in the nozzle.
Both methods are simple and very failsafe. Any modern maneuverable system will likely rely on more than one method as a failsafe and for enhanced overall performance due to increasing inability for an opponent to predict. Internally changing the center of gravity is amongst the most unobserveable methods to influence course, but it needs another method to better rapidly exploit the capability of course change provided this way.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: How do you sink a carrier

Blackstone said:
You know, a couple of unenhanced DF21D test fire videos, showing successful strikes of large slow moving objects at sea would put the matter to rest. Right...?
Click to expand...

I have been following ASBM for a long time and the skeptic always bring this "Yeah but can China find the carrier?"

Now Ian Easton and Russel Hsiao have confirm that indeed 2nd Artillery is now operating their own long range UAV brigades
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The Second Artillery Reconnaissance
Group (96637 Unit)
possibly oversees a subordinate battalion dedicated to UAV operations 89 Most likely responsible for
mission planning and ISR targeting support, the unit is subordinate to the Second Artillery Headquarters Department Intelligence Department and garrisoned in the northern Beijing suburb of Kangzhuang. It incorporated a UAV mission in the 2001 to 2002 timeframe. The group headquarters
personnel are noted to deploy for exercises.

90 While speculative, other possible UAV-related units under direct command of theSecond Artillery Headquarters Department include:

96605 Unit in Hui’an County, Fujian Province

96626 Unit in Jinhua, Zhejiang Province

91 Possible UAV equipped units under Second Artillery missile bases include the following:

52 Base (HQ in Huangshan, Anhui Province) 96180 Unit in Xianyou,Fujian Province (SRBM brigade
formerly under Nanjing MilitaryRegion)

53 Base (HQ in Kunming, Yunnan Province)
96212 Unit in Puning,Guangdong Province (SRBM brigade formerly under Guangzhou MilitaryRegion)
 
L

leibowitz

Junior Member
Re: How do you sink a carrier

Hendrik_2000 said:
I have been following ASBM for a long time and the skeptic always bring this "Yeah but can China find the carrier?"

Now Ian Easton and Russel Hsiao have confirm that indeed 2nd Artillery is now operating their own long range UAV brigades
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The Second Artillery Reconnaissance
Group (96637 Unit)
possibly oversees a subordinate battalion dedicated to UAV operations 89 Most likely responsible for
mission planning and ISR targeting support, the unit is subordinate to the Second Artillery Headquarters Department Intelligence Department and garrisoned in the northern Beijing suburb of Kangzhuang. It incorporated a UAV mission in the 2001 to 2002 timeframe. The group headquarters
personnel are noted to deploy for exercises.

90 While speculative, other possible UAV-related units under direct command of theSecond Artillery Headquarters Department include:

96605 Unit in Hui’an County, Fujian Province

96626 Unit in Jinhua, Zhejiang Province

91 Possible UAV equipped units under Second Artillery missile bases include the following:

52 Base (HQ in Huangshan, Anhui Province) 96180 Unit in Xianyou,Fujian Province (SRBM brigade
formerly under Nanjing MilitaryRegion)

53 Base (HQ in Kunming, Yunnan Province)
96212 Unit in Puning,Guangdong Province (SRBM brigade formerly under Guangzhou MilitaryRegion)
Click to expand...

Even a HALE (high alt, long endurance) UAV can only survey the ocean 100sqnm at a time. That's a lot of grid squares to cover against a fast-moving CVBG. Also, even if the 2nd Artillery finds it, it may have already steamed in strike range of strategic assets.

Back in the 70s and 80s the Soviets had a similar setup with Tu-95Ds running ELINT recon for USN CVBGs so that Tu-22M3 (and later, Tu-160) strike regiments could zoom out to pepper the CVBG with anti-ship missiles. It was hard going for the SNA if the CVBG air group CO and overall CO was reasonably competent, as there were a bunch of different ways to fool the SIGINT and ELINT efforts of the Soviet Union. I'm sure the USN could adopt those tactics reasonably well to deal with the DF-21D.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: How do you sink a carrier

t_co said:
Even a HALE (high alt, long endurance) UAV can only survey the ocean 100sqnm at a time. That's a lot of grid squares to cover against a fast-moving CVBG. Also, even if the 2nd Artillery finds it, it may have already steamed in strike range of strategic assets.

Back in the 70s and 80s the Soviets had a similar setup with Tu-95Ds running ELINT recon for USN CVBGs so that Tu-22M3 (and later, Tu-160) strike regiments could zoom out to pepper the CVBG with anti-ship missiles. It was hard going for the SNA if the CVBG air group CO and overall CO was reasonably competent, as there were a bunch of different ways to fool the SIGINT and ELINT efforts of the Soviet Union. I'm sure the USN could adopt those tactics reasonably well to deal with the DF-21D.
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Well the answer to your question is simple. Have hundred of UAV to cover each of 100 sq Nm. Since UAV is cheap and dispensable. It is within China industrial capability to produce hundreds of UAV.
UAV is not the mean principal for finding the Carrier the myriad satellite system that china launched over the years is the primary detection method. UAV is there to confirm the bearing and watch over the battle group for a long time

As to spoofing the data link I am sure the Chinese is aware of counter electronic warfare and they certainly built in their Counter counter electronic warfare. There is report not too long ago China is researching quantum data communication that is robust and resistant to spoofing.

I supposed they also built redundancy and robust system so that they are not dependent on one detection system and can easily switch from one system to other

The Carrier era is coming to an end soon Read captain Jimmy Hendrix new monograph" At What Cost a Cartier" In which he question the cost effectiveness of Carrier battle group

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/str...p-strategies-tactics-137-4918.html#post227196

The queen of the American Fleet, and the centerpiece of the most powerful Navy the world has ever seen, the
aircraft carrier, is in danger of becoming like the battleships it was originally designed to support: big, expensive, vulnerable – and surprisingly irrelevant to the conflicts of the time
 
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leibowitz

Junior Member
Well the answer to your question is simple. Have hundred of UAV to cover each of 100 sq Nm. Since UAV is cheap and dispensable. It is within China industrial capability to produce hundreds of UAV.
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A standard CVBG can travel about 500 nm in a single day. That's 500nm in any single direction, which means potentially (500+500)*(500+500) = 1m sq nautical miles to search. If each UAV covers 100 sq Nm, then that's 10000 UAVs you'll need, which is cost-prohibitive.

UAV is not the mean principal for finding the Carrier the myriad satellite system that china launched over the years is the primary detection method. UAV is there to confirm the bearing and watch over the battle group for a long time

As to spoofing the data link I am sure the Chinese is aware of counter electronic warfare and they certainly built in their Counter counter electronic warfare. There is report not too long ago China is researching quantum data communication that is robust and resistant to spoofing.

I supposed they also built redundancy and robust system so that they are not dependent on one detection system and can easily switch from one system to other
Click to expand...

Orbital assets cover predictable paths and can be spoofed--not even by complicated methods. Instead of the CVBG traveling in a classic naval formation, they spread out into a long line appear like a fishing fleet, or they scatter and travel in slightly differing vectors so they look like merchant shipping traffic. Better yet, they find a bunch of merchant ships and hide in the crowd, using the poor schmucks as a combination of human shields and OTH radar bait--e.g., the USN says, "was that an aircraft carrier you think you just sunk? nope, that was a cargo tanker, which looks exactly like a carrier on your long-range radars and shows the exact same wake pattern to your orbital assets as a Nimitz. Now you look like a heartless idiot for sinking a bunch of civilians, and we have a moral mandate to impose a naval blockade. bwahahahaha!" None of those acts violate the laws of war, btw--the US, Japan, Britain, and Germany wrote the laws of naval warfare specifically to allow such tactics for their fleets.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
A standard CVBG can travel about 500 nm in a single day. That's 500nm in any single direction, which means potentially (500+500)*(500+500) = 1m sq nautical miles to search. If each UAV covers 100 sq Nm, then that's 10000 UAVs you'll need, which is cost-prohibitive.
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Nope A carrier is only travel at 30 knot per hour which is very slow .Once a satellite detect a Carrier battle group it will pass that information to the next passing satellite. All you need is 32 to 60 satellite. to completely watch over a spot in western Pacific at any time . Then you pass that information to closest UAV that is watching over their grid. You don't need 10000 UAV to do that. Because the UAV is flying at much faster speed than 30 knot an hour! it get there before the Carrier!. A UAV have 40 hour endurance!


Orbital assets cover predictable paths and can be spoofed--not even by complicated methods. Instead of the CVBG traveling in a classic naval formation, they spread out into a long line appear like a fishing fleet, or they scatter and travel in slightly differing vectors so they look like merchant shipping traffic. Better yet, they find a bunch of merchant ships and hide in the crowd, using the poor schmucks as a combination of human shields and OTH radar bait--e.g., the USN says, "was that an aircraft carrier you think you just sunk? nope, that was a cargo tanker, which looks exactly like a carrier on your long-range radars and shows the exact same wake pattern to your orbital assets as a Nimitz. Now you look like a heartless idiot for sinking a bunch of civilians, and we have a moral mandate to impose a naval blockade. bwahahahaha!" None of those acts violate the laws of war, btw--the US, Japan, Britain, and Germany wrote the laws of naval warfare specifically to allow such tactics for their fleets.
Click to expand...

You think that easy huh. A Carrier is not merchant ship it has to launch aircraft now and then to perform CAP and maintain radio contact or communication with that aircraft. As I said before identification is not only visual but also electromagnetic,and infra red spectrum. And Carrier has distinct silhouette that cannot be easily camouflage. It is hot body in cold sea and large 300 feet to be exact! By programming the infra red seeker with the profile of Carrier A satellite can easily spot on a carrier with no problem. That is how programmable infra red seeker in missile find their target. You don't know what you are talking about Bwa hahaha

Another thing do you know that the visual accuracy of Chinese Satellite is less than 1 m maybe even 50 centimeter!

Xianglong is equipped with a jet engine mounted on top of the fuselage between the V-shape tail wings. According to Chinese media reports, Xianglong has a normal take-off weight of 7,500 kg and a mission payload of 650 kg. The UAV has a cruise speed of 750 km/h and a maximum range of 7,000 km. According to information disclosed on Zhuhai Airshow, the UAV has a wingspan of 25 meters, 5.4 meters in height and 14.3 meters in length.[1]

I don't know where you get 100 nm grid from? Seem to me HALE has much higher range than 100 nm square
and with 500 mile /hr who will get there first the UAV or the Carrier with 30 nm/hr?

The UAV appears to be a high-altitude, long-duration UAV for strategic reconnaissance, similar in size and arrangement to the U.S. RQ-4 Global Hawk.[citation needed] But unlike the Global Hawk, the Xianglong does not possess global operation capability. With the deployment of such a long-range, high-altitude strategic reconnaissance UAV or any similar type of reconnaissance aircraft that covers a wide area, more data capacity or channels will be freed up for smaller tactical reconnaissance UAVs.

The Xianglong completed its high-speed taxing test in October 2008, and the maiden flight was expected to take place in early 2009.
 
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FirstImpulse

New Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
Nope A carrier is only travel at 30 knot per hour which is very slow .Once a satellite detect a Carrier battle group it will pass that information to the next passing satellite. All you need is 32 to 60 satellite. to completely watch over a spot in western Pacific at any time . Then you pass that information to closest UAV that is watching over their grid. You don't need 10000 UAV to do that. Because the UAV is flying at much faster speed than 30 knot an hour! it get there before the Carrier!. A UAV have 40 hour endurance!



It is hot body in cold sea and large 300 feet to be exact!
Another thing do you know that the visual accuracy of Chinese Satellite is less than 1 m maybe even 50 centimeter!

I don't know where you get 100 nm grid from? Seem to me HALE has much higher range than 100 nm square
and with 500 mile /hr who will get there first the UAV or the Carrier with 30 nm/hr?

The UAV appears to be a high-altitude, long-duration UAV for strategic reconnaissance, similar in size and arrangement to the U.S. RQ-4 Global Hawk.[citation needed] But unlike the Global Hawk, the Xianglong does not possess global operation capability. With the deployment of such a long-range, high-altitude strategic reconnaissance UAV or any similar type of reconnaissance aircraft that covers a wide area, more data capacity or channels will be freed up for smaller tactical reconnaissance UAVs.
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First, time for a math lesson. A 30 knot cruising speed is about 34.5 miles per hour. 24 hours later, and the carrier would've traveled 828 miles, or very nearly 720 nautical miles. The United States has been at the game of hiding carriers for longer than the PRC has had a navy. Don't underestimate them. Satellites can only make short quick passes (geosynchronous sats can only operate on the equator, so no luck there either), and recon UAVs will be detected long before they see the carrier, thanks to the E-2s operating from it. The only realistic option for the Chinese to find a Nimitz or Ford would be submarines- and PRC subs still can't communicate in real time with other forces, and they themselves are outclassed by US submarine technology.
 
S

s002wjh

Junior Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
Nope A carrier is only travel at 30 knot per hour which is very slow .Once a satellite detect a Carrier battle group it will pass that information to the next passing satellite. All you need is 32 to 60 satellite. to completely watch over a spot in western Pacific at any time . Then you pass that information to closest UAV that is watching over their grid. You don't need 10000 UAV to do that. Because the UAV is flying at much faster speed than 30 knot an hour! it get there before the Carrier!. A UAV have 40 hour endurance!




You think that easy huh. A Carrier is not merchant ship it has to launch aircraft now and then to perform CAP and maintain radio contact or communication with that aircraft. As I said before identification is not only visual but also electromagnetic,and infra red spectrum. And Carrier has distinct silhouette that cannot be easily camouflage. It is hot body in cold sea and large 300 feet to be exact! By programming the infra red seeker with the profile of Carrier A satellite can easily spot on a carrier with no problem. That is how programmable infra red seeker in missile find their target. You don't know what you are talking about Bwa hahaha

Another thing do you know that the visual accuracy of Chinese Satellite is less than 1 m maybe even 50 centimeter!

Xianglong is equipped with a jet engine mounted on top of the fuselage between the V-shape tail wings. According to Chinese media reports, Xianglong has a normal take-off weight of 7,500 kg and a mission payload of 650 kg. The UAV has a cruise speed of 750 km/h and a maximum range of 7,000 km. According to information disclosed on Zhuhai Airshow, the UAV has a wingspan of 25 meters, 5.4 meters in height and 14.3 meters in length.[1]

I don't know where you get 100 nm grid from? Seem to me HALE has much higher range than 100 nm square
and with 500 mile /hr who will get there first the UAV or the Carrier with 30 nm/hr?

The UAV appears to be a high-altitude, long-duration UAV for strategic reconnaissance, similar in size and arrangement to the U.S. RQ-4 Global Hawk.[citation needed] But unlike the Global Hawk, the Xianglong does not possess global operation capability. With the deployment of such a long-range, high-altitude strategic reconnaissance UAV or any similar type of reconnaissance aircraft that covers a wide area, more data capacity or channels will be freed up for smaller tactical reconnaissance UAVs.

The Xianglong completed its high-speed taxing test in October 2008, and the maiden flight was expected to take place in early 2009.
Click to expand...

i don't know why people keep thinking locate/track a CVBG in west pacific is a easy task under combat condition. the 1st thing US will due in the event of war is to eliminate/jam surveillance equipment that can detect/track CVBG. do think US will allow UAV to approach a CVG within 100nm without do something about it? even if you detect it, the CVG still need to be tracked in REAL TIME for the ASBM to work. if the missile even off by 1 degree its the difference between miss and hit, so the whole thing has to be done in REAL Time, not something thats easy to do.
 
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