Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Actucally, Actually, most Anti-ship missiles are not ballistic missiles on ballistic trajectories, traveling at ballistic speeds. At those speeds, and with the weight restrictions necessary for most ballistic applications, the ability for the RV to re-acquire and adequately manuever is going to come into question.

In addition, most anti-ship missile get their targeting information when they are fired. They kick their onboard radar or other sensors in when they get much closer than 100km.

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The reason why they get information when they were fired is because they don't want radar lock on the target and activate the radar warning too early until the very last minute because by then there is not enough time for the target to react

In no way it reflect the radar capability or killzone Here is the brochure of small diameter AA missile AGAT seeker

antenna mirror diameter is
280 mm. It will be able to lock on
fighters at a range of up to 70 km.

ASBM is big missile with diameter at least of 1m It can carry all kind of radar and seeker

Already discussed. See above. They actually are not similar given the points I discussed in the prior p[ost. There is an order of magnitude difference.

Your other quotes and "opines" are replete with the following types of qualifieers: "Most likely", "a national priority", "could possibly", "is often discussed", etc.

When operational and live fire tests prove these points out, the US military will know it...and my guess is that soon thereafter it will be leaked to the press. That has not happened to date.

Finally, as I have stated...this missile is going head to head with the heart and strength of the developing AEGIS BMD system, which has had those level of tests successfully performed and published. And which has even more highly advanced technology being developed as we speak.

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The brigade that will manned this ASBM is in formation and there were report that they have exercised in some undisclosed place. Global Time
confirmed unamed sources that DF 21D is in operation


The source also unveiled that "the Chinese-made Dong Feng 21D missile, with firing range between 1800 and 2800 kilometers, is already deployed in the army."

Foreign media have also speculated that the Dong Feng 21D is a "carrier killer" and would prove to be a game-changer in the Asian security environment, where US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups have ruled the waves since the end of World War II, the AP reported.

The Taiwan intelligence Chief said the same thing. So do Admiral Willard . So 3 different sources said it is in operation

As I said before SM3 is work in prgress. Only good for single warhead and Haven't been proven against decoy or severe counter measure .They have'nt finished testing until 2015

Last thing China is not resting on their laurel A new and improved missile is on the horizon with faster speed and depress trajectory

A military source close to the development, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed to the Global Times yesterday that "The subject under development is a medium- and long-range conventional missile with a traveling distance of as far as 4,000 kilometers."

"The research is going smoothly, and the missile will be produced and ready for service in five years," he said, noting that the project would also entail a three-year evaluation period.

"It extends the range of China's missiles and will therefore greatly enhance the national defense capabilities," the source said.

I don't know where did you found those vague word I can only find "likely" when he discussed the possible seeker. Of course he has to do it because he can only deduct from reading open publication. He doesn't get acces to the program. But he is accurate enough to name place, people who work on the project ,time etc. Tell tale sign of real thing

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

nemo said:

Maybe because they have to spend more R&D effort to catch up on technology, build infrastructure and machine tools for something that's already off-the-shelf for US? Everything being equivalent, PRC has a cost advantage over US, but not everything is equivalent.

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Why the need to spend more on R&D when the commercial technology can be bought off the shelf?

As for military technology, the FBI routinely considers PRC as the biggest threat to US national security. That's a nice way of saying that PRC is stealing technology. Then, there's the reverse engineering bit that they are also known for. How is this more expensive than developing the technology from scratch?

The real expensive R&D is for cutting edge stuff that doesn't yet exist. Even than, a researcher in the PRC costs less than a researcher in a developed world. Unless you are arguing that a Pentagon researcher is paid less than a researcher working for the PLA?

As for building infrastructure, it is indeed expensive. However, a new build infrastructure will also be more advanced and modern than those built decades ago. Anyway, construction costs are also significantly lower in PRC than in developed countries simply due to lower labour costs.

The bottom-line is that PRC's military-industrial base is comparatively cheaper to maintain on a per capita basis than any developed country's due simply to lower labour costs in PRC.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hendrik_2000 said:

The reason why they get information when they were fired is because they don't want radar lock on the target and activate the radar warning too early until the very last minute because by then there is not enough time for the target to react

In no way it reflect the radar capability or killzone Here is the brochure of small diameter AA missile AGAT seeker

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

antenna mirror diameter is
280 mm. It will be able to lock on
fighters at a range of up to 70 km.

ASBM is big missile with diameter at least of 1m It can carry all kind of radar and seeker




The brigade that will manned this ASBM is in formation and there were report that they have exercised in some undisclosed place. Global Time
confirmed unamed sources that DF 21D is in operation

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The source also unveiled that "the Chinese-made Dong Feng 21D missile, with firing range between 1800 and 2800 kilometers, is already deployed in the army."

Foreign media have also speculated that the Dong Feng 21D is a "carrier killer" and would prove to be a game-changer in the Asian security environment, where US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups have ruled the waves since the end of World War II, the AP reported.

The Taiwan intelligence Chief said the same thing. So do Admiral Willard . So 3 different sources said it is in operation

As I said before SM3 is work in prgress. Only good for single warhead and Haven't been proven against decoy or severe counter measure .They have'nt finished testing until 2015

Last thing China is not resting on their laurel A new and improved missile is on the horizon with faster speed and depress trajectory

A military source close to the development, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed to the Global Times yesterday that "The subject under development is a medium- and long-range conventional missile with a traveling distance of as far as 4,000 kilometers."

"The research is going smoothly, and the missile will be produced and ready for service in five years," he said, noting that the project would also entail a three-year evaluation period.

"It extends the range of China's missiles and will therefore greatly enhance the national defense capabilities," the source said.

I don't know where did you found those vague word I can only find "likely" when he discussed the possible seeker. Of course he has to do it because he can only deduct from reading open publication. He doesn't get acces to the program. But he is accurate enough to name place, people who work on the project ,time etc. Tell tale sign of real thing

Click to expand...

operational and developing phase are quite different, as far as i know, the report/news i saw indicate its in developing phase, maybe early testing phase, but not operational yet.

the system has to has enough time for radar, computing system etc etc to boot up, lock on, and tracking before it loss its target. however with speed up to several Km/s during terminal phase, you going to have very tight timing if ASBM radar/tracking turn on at the last sec. on top of that if there are alot background clutters/atomsphere attenuation then missile can potentially lost the target. the atomsphere attenuation can be a serious issue due to distance between the missile and the target. then there is MMW max detention range/angle of detention, even with BM larger dome, it might not be large enough to have a powerfull radar that can track moving target on the ground thousands km away.
on top of all these issues, the carrier group and other platform going try to jam the radar signal.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

China has successfully tested mid-course interception also. They could hit a ballistic missile with essentially another ballistic missile. Hitting an aircraft carrier with ballistic missile is not that hard if you already have the know-how.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

operational and developing phase are quite different, as far as i know, the report/news i saw indicate its in developing phase, maybe early testing phase, but not operational yet.

the system has to has enough time for radar, computing system etc etc to boot up, lock on, and tracking before it loss its target. however with speed up to several Km/s during terminal phase, you going to have very tight timing if ASBM radar/tracking turn on at the last sec. on top of that if there are alot background clutters/atomsphere attenuation then missile can potentially lost the target. the atomsphere attenuation can be a serious issue due to distance between the missile and the target. then there is MMW max detention range/angle of detention, even with BM larger dome, it might not be large enough to have a powerfull radar that can track moving target on the ground thousands km away.
on top of all these issues, the carrier group and other platform going try to jam the radar signal.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about .Every evening when you watch weather forecast what did you see a blob on the screen ? because of atmosphere clutter or whatever. No you see clear cloud pattern moving over sea or ground. Why because they filtered out the noise and clutter Well known technology is called MTI look it up in the web.

You think only US have the technology and nobody else. And you will be surprised what they have achieved


Officials from the SD-10's manufacturer, the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC), said the missile was designed from the beginning to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If so, the SD-10 is the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.

There have been suggestions that the latest AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) developed by Raytheon for the US Air Force and Navy has a similar dual-mode seeker capability. The full capabilities of the AIM-120D remain classified, but its development has been problematic and it has yet to enter operational service

Here is paper author by Chinese researcher at Tsinghua about sea clutter if you can understand


Here is his conclusion
Experimental Results
The spatial tracking filter was used here with real data
to evaluate the sea clutter suppression and target indication.
The filtered data from Fig. 1 is shown in Fig. 9
using the conservative parameters corresponding to the
0.49 MHz cut-off frequency. The low-frequency largescale
structure of sea clutter is almost eliminated, with
the high-frequency components and the target remaining
Even in the presence of the high-frequency sea
clutter, the target can still be clearly distinguished from
the clutter

The missile itself is not going to track the target over 1000 of kilometer. One way of doing it is thru Inertial guidance system.They will either fed the coordinate of the target and navigate with inertial guidance system or They will get data and update via data link either from Satellite or other platform. Only when they are close enough will the missile activate their own radar. In the mean time the Geosynchronous satellite will keep track of the target


They are way to mitigate ECM they are all well know technology read this

Radiation homingThe other main aspect of ECCM, is to program sensors or seekers to detect attempts at ECM and possible even to take advantage of it. For example, some modern fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 and the AMRAAM are able to home in directly on sources of radar jamming if the jamming is too powerful to allow them to find and track the target normally. This mode, called 'home-on-jam', actually makes the missile's job easier. Some missile seekers actually target the enemy's radiation sources, and are therefore called "anti-radiation missiles" (ARM). The jamming in this case effectively becomes a beacon announcing the presence and location of the transmitter. This makes the use of such ECM a difficult decision; it may serve to obscure an exact location from a non-ARM missile, but in doing so it must emit signals which can be exploited by an ARM type missile

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hendrik_2000 said:

What are you talking about .Every evening when you watch weather forecast what did you see a blob on the screen ? because of atmosphere clutter or whatever. No you see clear cloud pattern moving over sea or ground. Why because they filtered out the noise and clutter Well known technology is called MTI look it up in the web.

You think only US have the technology and nobody else. And you will be surprised what they have achieved

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Officials from the SD-10's manufacturer, the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC), said the missile was designed from the beginning to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If so, the SD-10 is the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.

There have been suggestions that the latest AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) developed by Raytheon for the US Air Force and Navy has a similar dual-mode seeker capability. The full capabilities of the AIM-120D remain classified, but its development has been problematic and it has yet to enter operational service

Here is paper author by Chinese researcher at Tsinghua about sea clutter if you can understand

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Here is his conclusion
Experimental Results
The spatial tracking filter was used here with real data
to evaluate the sea clutter suppression and target indication.
The filtered data from Fig. 1 is shown in Fig. 9
using the conservative parameters corresponding to the
0.49 MHz cut-off frequency. The low-frequency largescale
structure of sea clutter is almost eliminated, with
the high-frequency components and the target remaining
Even in the presence of the high-frequency sea
clutter, the target can still be clearly distinguished from
the clutter

The missile itself is not going to track the target over 1000 of kilometer. One way of doing it is thru Inertial guidance system.They will either fed the coordinate of the target and navigate with inertial guidance system or They will get data and update via data link either from Satellite or other platform. Only when they are close enough will the missile activate their own radar. In the mean time the Geosynchronous satellite will keep track of the target

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They are way to mitigate ECM they are all well know technology read this

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Radiation homingThe other main aspect of ECCM, is to program sensors or seekers to detect attempts at ECM and possible even to take advantage of it. For example, some modern fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 and the AMRAAM are able to home in directly on sources of radar jamming if the jamming is too powerful to allow them to find and track the target normally. This mode, called 'home-on-jam', actually makes the missile's job easier. Some missile seekers actually target the enemy's radiation sources, and are therefore called "anti-radiation missiles" (ARM). The jamming in this case effectively becomes a beacon announcing the presence and location of the transmitter. This makes the use of such ECM a difficult decision; it may serve to obscure an exact location from a non-ARM missile, but in doing so it must emit signals which can be exploited by an ARM type missile

Click to expand...

maybe when you learn more about RF signal, attenuation etc, then maybe you can understand the complexity of different type of radar operation and useage for different purpose compare to weather radar. there are big difference between military tracking radar vs weather radar/sat. my reply was base on your previous post which you clearly think anti-sat missile = ASBM. thats why i tell you there are clutters/Attenuation due to atomsphere, ground affect, sat trajectory etc etc.

the missile will not be able to track target without addional help. those help can be destroyed/jammed etc before china had the chance to fire the missile or during missile flight. even with those help the missile STILL need to track/recognize the target during terminal phase, which is tough task consider its travelling at several Km/s and hundreds Km away.
the whole point of this thread is because no one seen any credible reports saying the missile has been tested, and its in production. a reliable test report will prove the ASBM can work with other sat/land base system, track, identify, and destroy the target.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

supercat said:

China has successfully tested mid-course interception also. They could hit a ballistic missile with essentially another ballistic missile. Hitting an aircraft carrier with ballistic missile is not that hard if you already have the know-how.

Click to expand...

when a BM traveling down, the ships/land base radars(bigger and more powerfull compare to MMW in a ASBM) can locate and track BM easier(not many thing fly 7km/s in the sky). the ship can calculate the trajectory of the BM, and program the ABM accordingly and fire at correct angle etc, later the ABM can adjust the its trajectory slightly, but not much(due to other unkown errors)

when a ASBM try to hit a sea moving target. it acquire initial location of battle group from other source(under jam/attack situation maybe), once its fired, the ASBM has to adjust its course at terminal phase with less powerful radar(compare to land base ship radar), it has to know which target is the carrier and whats its current location(diffcult to do since there are other ships in the area + background clutter from sea/land etc) in few secs. precise data upload from remote source would be diffcult due to delay,speed,the amount of data transfer between remote command/missile etc.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

when a BM traveling down, the ships/land base radars(bigger and more powerfull compare to MMW in a ASBM) can locate and track BM easier(not many thing fly 7km/s in the sky). the ship can calculate the trajectory of the BM, and program the ABM accordingly and fire at correct angle etc, later the ABM can adjust the its trajectory slightly, but not much(due to other unkown errors)

when a ASBM try to hit a sea moving target. it acquire initial location of battle group from other source(under jam/attack situation maybe), once its fired, the ASBM has to adjust its course at terminal phase with less powerful radar(compare to land base ship radar), it has to know which target is the carrier and whats its current location(diffcult to do since there are other ships in the area + background clutter from sea/land etc) in few secs. precise data upload from remote source would be diffcult due to delay,speed,the amount of data transfer between remote command/missile etc.

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Who says you need a very powerful radar?
and who says mid-course update is impossible?
you?
how many years have you worked on these problems?

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

maybe when you learn more about RF signal, attenuation etc, then maybe you can understand the complexity of different type of radar operation and useage for different purpose compare to weather radar. there are big difference between military tracking radar vs weather radar/sat. my reply was base on your previous post which you clearly think anti-sat missile = ASBM. thats why i tell you there are clutters/Attenuation due to atomsphere, ground affect, sat trajectory etc etc.

the missile will not be able to track target without addional help. those help can be destroyed/jammed etc before china had the chance to fire the missile or during missile flight. even with those help the missile STILL need to track/recognize the target during terminal phase, which is tough task consider its travelling at several Km/s and hundreds Km away.
the whole point of this thread is because no one seen any credible reports saying the missile has been tested, and its in production. a reliable test report will prove the ASBM can work with other sat/land base system, track, identify, and destroy the target.

Click to expand...

You apprently never read my post. It is you who need to learn more. First you say the missile has to track the target over thousand miles which is completely wrong. Then you try to weasel your way with nonsense like atmosphere clutter. There is sea clutter.which can be filtered out

Now you argue about Carriere move hundred of miles. From the time the carriere is detected to the hit, is no more than 30 to 40 minute. Now at 30 knot which is 35 mile/hr How far can the carriere move?. Gee amazing. I give up this is my last post

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

This is not a new subject nor is this the first time the "End of the carrier age" has been proclaimed. In fact, the carrier age-if defined as the aircraft carrier being the most important single conventional weapon system at sea-ended in the mid-1980's. What followed was a much more intergrated concept of the surface, subsurface, air, space and information battlespace. The aircraft carrier plays a vital-but not irreplaceable-part of the US Navy's approach to this battlespace.

Now China is fielding a medium ranged antiship ballistic missile-the DF-21. If past newly developed weapons platforms are anything to go by-the DF-21 will probably be only marginally effective. However, this is the first operational convetional weapon of it's type. Surely, more effective ASBM's will follow. The starter of this thread feels this may mean aircraft carriers are no longer a threat because they can be eliminated by ASBM's. I disagree. What ASBM's do is add one more area to the naval battlespace---land strike. What naval cruise missiles have been hitting land targets for decades now, the emergence of ASBM's means that the approach to land strike will have to be rethought. The deployment of US Navy SSGN's to the western Pacific last year gives a clue to what the navy may have in mind.

But this deployment is only a crude first step... perhaps not even a first step. What is obvious is that complete management of the six (6!) battlespace environments is vital for any navy to project power and attain sea supremacy. Aircraft carriers provide a platform for the projection of organic air power into enemy controlled maritime environments. This means fighters, asw helicopters, assault helicopters,armed drones, EW aircraft ect. Simply put-aircraft carriers in the US Navy are not prestige toys. Instead they provide a vital capability that cannot be easily (or cheaply) replaced by any other platform.

Therefore, expect to see the development of systems to attain control over the six battlespaces. Surface launced ABM's may well be augmented with air launched ABM's. Sea launched cruise missiles will become longer ranged and MUCH faster. Detection technology is likely to use drones to cruise vast distances, and in great numbers, to seek land targets. Air and sea launched ASM's will eventually be upgraded. ...and I don't see why US develioped ASBM's could not be developed and deployed aboard subs and surface vessels.

Finally, China's ASBM's require a rather intricate and fragile system of satellites, radars, communications and launchers. I wonder if the Chinese military has considered the implications of using land based ASBM's against US naval vessels? They must know we'll seek the weapons and sensors wherever they are? The ASBM's biggest enemy may not be the aircraft carrier by itself. It faces the intergrated fleet fighting is six dimenions. It could well be the ballistic missile submarine, or a cruise missile sub, with conventional warheads firing only 400-500 miles from the Chinese coast. Or it could be cruisers and destroyers firing from radar blind spots near islands... or it could mean drones from carriers flying a thousand miles to destroy a radar site. For both sides...this is a VERY dangerous game. The age of the carrier as a single decisive weapons has long pased. The age of six dimensional warfare from the sea has arrived.