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Phead128

Major
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Restraint becomes kind of a weakness when it's so beneficial for to be restrained. Then it becomes a handcuff that prevents you from taking action against provocation because you keep thinking, not yet, I need to hold on until I am stronger and my position is more favorable. China's biggest advantage is that it is so intelligent, restrained and thinks long term. But it is also its biggest weakness because everyone thinks they are too afraid to take costly actions.

If China was as unhinged as US for example, they would have banned all rare earth export to any country that bans Chip exports. That would have crippled Chip industry of US and Taiwan. It would have been such a huge action that whole world would have taken notice. It also would have deterred US to pursue more Chip sanctions.

What has China banned in response to all the Huawei bans in Europe and Australia? Did they ban Apple and German cars for example? For being a potential spy tool?

They have been extremely restrained because they cannot take these actions without huge costs to its own economy. and there is a fundamental difference between what US and the west wants and what China wants.

China's goal is to get richer and stronger, not to bring US down. But for US, they are already rich, they are already on top. They just want to bring China down. So, they can take actions that is costly for their economy, hoping that it will cost China more and maybe cause a collapse.

This is the fundamental difference between China and the USSR. China wants its own rise, USSR wanted to bring US down.

This is all very good and intelligent from China. But it is also a weakness in the Taiwan scenario. Because Taiwan and US can keep on Salami slicing all they want and China cannot take strong action without causing problems to their long term goal.



There is a difference between what is called a success for DPP vs what is a success for China. The Taiwan independence battle is battle of recognition. Taiwan is already de-facto separate from the mainland. But what Taiwan independence crowd really hated was that the west didn't interact with Taiwan on a political level. They wanted recognition from US and the west as a country.

Now they are kind of getting it. Not overtly, but bit by bit. slowly. Now politicians and ministers from western countries are visiting Taiwan as if it is a country. These ministers and official meet Tsai as if She is a president of a country. That is the recognition they seek.

When Tsai gets to visit the US or talk to US leaders, that's a win for them. When Lithuania opens a "Taiwan Representative Office", that'a huge win for them. Cause what is the difference between a "Taiwan representative office" vs a "taiwan embassy"? Very little.

Slowly but surely Taiwan is moving towards de-facto recognition of Taiwan Independence. They will not declare independence but they dont need to if presidents and leaders from US and the west openly visits Taiwan, Taiwan gets to open these representative offices and gets to openly participate in sports as "Taiwan".

They want to become independent without declaring independence. And currently they are succeeding towards moving to that goal step by step.

But China's goal is much harder. They have to actually takeover Taiwan physically. That's a much harder goal than the simple recognition game. So, China hasn't made any progress in their goal while Taiwan has been making a lot of progress in their goal.
There is no such thing as defacto recognition of independence, because Taiwan is defacto independent with its own govt, military, currency, foreign policy. What is in dispute is dejure independence, and it's not something that even symbolic routine visits can formalize without triggering war. There are limits to what a one-day handshake and photo op can do...what Taiwan truly needs is security guarantee, not useless photo ops. US can't give that is a sign of US weakness too.
 

Lethe

Captain
Second, from the Russian perspective, having Finland join NATO is nothing compared to losing Ukraine.

I disagree; from Russia's perspective having Finland join NATO is a catastrophe, but it is embedded within the larger catastrophe of Moscow's failure in Ukraine. Being powerless to prevent it, the next best thing is to pretend that it is somehow not particularly important.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
First of all, this is the SINO defence forum. People naturally look at things from the Chinese perspective, and from that perspective, Finland joining NATO isn't very newsworthy.

Second, from the Russian perspective, having Finland join NATO is nothing compared to losing Ukraine.
I was curious how Russians would feel about it and have been observing them in Telegram. It's certainly discussed a lot but I think the best analogy is it's similar to how Chinese feel regarding the recent movement towards more pro-US by South Korea under Yoon. It's certainly a negative but they kind of just shrug and say well it has to be factored into future geopolitical calculation.

It's very different from intense emotion that Ukraine/Taiwan elicits.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I disagree; from Russia's perspective having Finland join NATO is a catastrophe, but it is embedded within the larger catastrophe of Moscow's failure in Ukraine.
The Ukrainian war was unavoidable. However the performance of the Russian military was for sure entirely avoidable and fixable if a certain person was paying attention to see its weaknesses
 

CMP

Captain
Registered Member
Ukraine has tons of Russian speakers and ethnic Russians, so it's a different case compared to Finland.

In contrast, Northern Europe has never been part of Greater Russia. Northern Europeans were always going to be with NATO in general and the US in particular, even if only informally. Now they're just making it official.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
I disagree; from Russia's perspective having Finland join NATO is a catastrophe, but it is embedded within the larger catastrophe of Moscow's failure in Ukraine. Being powerless to prevent it, the next best thing is to pretend that it is somehow not particularly important.
Finlands accession was a slow-moving train and had mostly happened practically long ago. Starting in 1991, Finland has increased its cooperation with NATO. In 2014, it even allowed the temporary hosting of NATO forces.

It is even more true for "neutral" Sweden. Even during the 1970s Sweden was flying recon missions on the Soviet border and was sharing their findings to the USA.
 
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