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spring2017

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A free market is inherently unstable, but that doesn't mean it can't be efficient at the same time.

A free market needs rules and regulations to keep it from crashing or collapsing into monopolies.
My friend, a free market is very efficient to make the rich richer. But it is every inefficient to serve the needs of the public.

Unfortunately, even with rules and regulations, the crashing and monopolies cannot be stopped. As evidenced by what is going on in the U.S. and other capitalist powers.

Moreover, while rules and regulations lesson the severity of crisis, it kills the animal spirit, and stifles capitalism, making it even weaker.

So, without regulations, capitalism will have quicker death, like jumping off the cliff; with regulations, it will have slower death, like being strangled.

The end result is the same :)
 

spring2017

New Member
Registered Member
I couldn't possibly forget about China. China's not really socialist anymore
China, has never reached true socialism, characterized by both advanced technology and worker's democracy. But, in the last analysis, is not a capitalist country. The state controls all strategic industries, and the CPC is still committed to building socialism.

Not only in theory the CPC constitution and state constitution uphold socialism, in practice, the government behavior is inconsistent with a capitalist regime: poverty elimination drive, huge infrastructure construction, suppression of billionaires, putting people's lives before profit in fighting Covid, non-aggression toward weaker countries...

You are right that capitalist forces have grown in China, and capitalist mode of production is wide-spread. That has resulted in problems common in a capitalist society, such as large gap between rich and poor, and racial/social tension previously unseen in China, not to mention over-production, financial market risk, and ever-decreasing economic growth...

So, China is indeed on the brink. If capitalism triumphant in China, China will become another USSR (minus the ten thousand nuclear bombs). But that is not set in stone.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
China, has never reached true socialism, characterized by both advanced technology and worker's democracy.
Nobody has; that's because socialist successes live only in imagination.

Socialism is like Tai Chi; in theory, it is invincible as it turns all of your opponent's force against him. However, no one can actually "master" it, so in practice, any combat martial art (sparring, not forms only) will maul a Tai Chi master like he were a child, and a funny child at that.
China, in the last analysis, is not a capitalist country. The state controls all strategic industries, and the CPC is still committed to building socialism.

Not only in theory the CPC constitution and state constitution uphold socialism, in practice, the government behavior is inconsistent with a capitalist regime: poverty elimination drive, huge infrastructure construction, suppression of billionaires, putting people's lives before profit in fighting Covid, non-aggression toward weaker countries...
Did we have a previous analysis? I don't remember the last time you dared reply me! But you are barking up the wrong tree. I never said that China is capitalist; I said that China incorporates many aspects of capitalism into its system, which also has some socialist elements and elements that are completely new. That is China's system; it is neither capitalism nor socialism so it cannot be counted in either camp but amongst the countries that can be solidly classified as socialist (North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba) and capitalist (USA, South Korea, every country in the EU, etc...), it's clear to see the inferiority of socialism.
You are right that capitalist forces have grown in China, and capitalist mode of production is wide-spread. That has resulted in problems common in a capitalist society, such as large gap between rich and poor, and racial/social tension previously unseen in China, not to mention over-production, financial market risk, and ever-decreasing economic growth...
Those are what have caused China to grow explosively; before them, China was weak and poor like North Korea.
So, China is indeed on the brink. If capitalism triumphant in China, China will become another USSR (minus the ten thousand nuclear bombs). But that is not set in stone.
You are confused on the cause and effect. The USSR used socialism, causing permanent wounds that led to its demise. China tried socialism but quickly realized that although it had some nice principles, it does not work as a whole system so China fashioned its own political system and it triumphed. The USSR died because socialism does not work while China navigated that obstacle and got off the sinking ship before it was too late. The USSR became more capitalistic at the end not because it was drunk on success and riches but because it was trying to save its decaying body from socialism.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
I couldn't possibly forget about China. China's not really socialist anymore; it was decades ago, and it is still in name only. Nowadays, everyone in China works his/her ass off for the rich elite and to become the rich elite and there is nothing more frightening to them than being poor. In this aspect, it is more capitalist and cut throat than the most competitive of Western capitalist nations. Since China integrated more and more capitalist/free market strategies into its system, it has moved away from real socialism and towards real success.

No, I think you have some mistaken ideas about Socialism.

China isn't moving away from socialism. It's simply the most successful socialist country in the world's history.

Again, the definition of Socialism is this:

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Now, I will grant you that throughout the 90s and 2000's, China looked a lot more like a Capitalist free-for-all. However, it is clear by now that those decades were a necessary transition for China to move into the modern economy.

Remember that even Marx said Socialism can only happen after Capitalism has boosted society's productivity, which is exactly what happened in China.

The problem with Capitalism is that alongside with higher productivity, it will also increase social inequality. A Capitalist China would have allowed those social inequalities to continue to grow, as American social inequality has grown over the past 30 years. Instead, the Chinese leadership took action to reduce this inequality.

From 2010 onwards, China embarked on a journey to transform itself from a Capitalist economy into a Socialist economy. Labor and environmental laws were tightened and enforced, SOEs were expanded and given greater roles, especially in infrastructure building. The wealthy were reined in: tax evasions were investigated more rigorously, corrupt politicians were harshly punished (with many executed), thereby weakening the grip of money over politics. After the 2008 financial crisis, additional regulations were created to tighten China's banking system (which are entirely state-owned btw, in direct contrast to the US), and make it resistant to the kind of manipulation we've seen in the West. When Jack Ma tried to get around those regulations with Ant Financial, he was quickly shut down.

Finally, who can forget the poverty alleviation effort? Can you name a single Capitalist country that has spent the amount of resources and manpower that China has spent to lift so many people out of poverty? In Capitalist terms, a poor person is someone who is too lazy to better themselves. Poverty alleviation is completely anathema to Capitalism!

Then you have the fact that since Xi's ascension, he has made Marxist studies a priority among all 90 million CPC members. All of the policies that Xi has championed follow Marxist principles: anti-corruption drive, poverty alleviation, OBOR, and even the Chinese Dream.

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“中国梦”的核心目标也可以概括为“两个一百年”的目标,也就是:到2021年
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成立100周年和2049年
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成立100周年时,逐步并最终顺利实现中华民族的伟大复兴,具体表现是国家富强、民族振兴、人民幸福,实现途径是走中国特色的社会主义道路、坚持
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、弘扬
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、凝聚中国力量,实施手段是
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、经济、文化、社会、生态文明五位一体建设。

We have a China that does Socialist things, that calls itself Socialist, that studies Socialist theories, and promotes Socialist ideals.

So how is it not Socialist? Because it makes use of market economy? Let's read the definition of Socialism again:

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Socialism can absolutely make use of a market economy, it just needs to make sure that market economy is properly regulated.

Yet another thing to keep in mind is that Socialism is very young compared to Capitalism. Capitalism is around 500 years old, born when medieval European merchants started gaining power over the aristocracy. Socialism, in contrast, was born only 100 or so years ago after Marx wrote his critique of Capitalism.

In many ways, the success of the Chinese Model is blazing a new path for the progress of humanity.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
No, I think you have some mistaken ideas about Socialism.

China isn't moving away from socialism. It's simply the most successful socialist country in the world's history.

Again, the definition of Socialism is this:

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
That definition does not describe China. The majority of Chinese people work for private industries where they earn a salary; they do not own part of it and it is not a state-owned industry.
Now, I will grant you that throughout the 90s and 2000's, China looked a lot more like a Capitalist free-for-all. However, it is clear by now that those decades were a necessary transition for China to move into the modern economy.
I was going to say more like the decades under Mao, China was totally socialist and basically the nation wasn't going anywhere. I'm not against Mao because he gave China its identity but China under Mao was the most socialist and it had the least stable economy and least improvements in technology.
Remember that even Marx said Socialism can only happen after Capitalism has boosted society's productivity, which is exactly what happened in China.

The problem with Capitalism is that alongside with higher productivity, it will also increase social inequality. A Capitalist China would have allowed those social inequalities to continue to grow, as American social inequality has grown over the past 30 years. Instead, the Chinese leadership took action to reduce this inequality.
Every economy in the world wants to decrease social inequality without reduction to individual drive to outperform. This is not unique to socialism because social inequality will eventually lead to rising crime rates and instability. Capitalist economies around the world implement measures such as social programs and benefits to people with lower income to try to rectify this. China is immensely successful because single state-control is incredibly efficient when it is properly implemented but the idea of reducing the wealth gap is not at all exclusive to socialism.
From 2010 onwards, China embarked on a journey to transform itself from a Capitalist economy into a Socialist economy.
Most of the things that follow are not unique to socialism but characteristic to modern economies and societies.
Labor and environmental laws were tightened and enforced,
That is pretty much the same as in the US and EU.
SOEs were expanded and given greater roles, especially in infrastructure building.
Yet, they are declining as a percentage of China's economy as China had negligible private enterprises in the old socialist times and but now, private billionaires booming everywhere.
The wealthy were reined in: tax evasions were investigated more rigorously, corrupt politicians were harshly punished (with many executed), thereby weakening the grip of money over politics. After the 2008 financial crisis, additional regulations were created to tighten China's banking system (which are entirely state-owned btw, in direct contrast to the US), and make it resistant to the kind of manipulation we've seen in the West. When Jack Ma tried to get around those regulations with Ant Financial, he was quickly shut down.
That is the beauty of China's unique system; the rich are exploding in wealth and number all over China and yet they are kept under control. Under capitalism, they take over and under socialism, they can't even exist. I don't call this socialism; this is China's unique style.
Finally, who can forget the poverty alleviation effort? Can you name a single Capitalist country that has spent the amount of resources and manpower that China has spent to lift so many people out of poverty?
No, I cannot. China is incredibly good at focusing and getting something done and that has nothing to do with socialism; it has to do with one party control at the hands of a competent party. Additionally, the concept of eradicating poverty and programs to help the poor is seen all over the world in all advanced economies, so that is not a socialist thing either. These are the successes of China's system, not socialism.
In Capitalist terms, a poor person is someone who is too lazy to better themselves.
That's what all Asian parents tell their kids. That's what my dad told me. That's why Asian people don't give money to street bums. In that regard, Asian parents are really capitalist.
Poverty alleviation is completely anathema to Capitalism!
No it's not; look at all the modern economies; they all do it to one end or another. The main difference is dedication and effectiveness.
Then you have the fact that since Xi's ascension, he has made Marxist studies a priority among all 90 million CPC members. All of the policies that Xi has championed follow Marxist principles: anti-corruption drive, poverty alleviation, OBOR, and even the Chinese Dream.
Anti-corruption and poverty alleviation are principles heralded by all modern economies (and even ancient ones) while OBOR and the Chinese dream are unique to China. The Chinese dream is no copy paste; it was painstakingly and meticulously developed just for China. It mainly emphasizes China's return to power as the most advanced civilization in the world and "socialism with Chinese characteristics" which is basically the Chinese hybrid system, socialism mostly in name. As I said, these are the successes of China's system, not socialism.
We have a China that does Socialist things, that calls itself Socialist, that studies Socialist theories, and promotes Socialist ideals.

So how is it not Socialist? Because it makes use of market economy? Let's read the definition of Socialism again:

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
I would say that that definition is not China, at least not more China than any openly capitalist state. Since you focused on the "regulated" portion this time, I will too. How are China's industries more regulated by the working class or common people than any capitalist nation? China's not even a democracy; at least in a democracy, the people can threaten not to reelect someone and he has to pick between lobbyists and keeping his job longer. In China, the final decision is made by the elites of the CCP, not the working common people. And it's for the best because the CCP has a national plan that needs to be followed.
Socialism can absolutely make use of a market economy, it just needs to make sure that market economy is properly regulated.

Yet another thing to keep in mind is that Socialism is very young compared to Capitalism. Capitalism is around 500 years old, born when medieval European merchants started gaining power over the aristocracy. Socialism, in contrast, was born only 100 or so years ago after Marx wrote his critique of Capitalism.
You've focused on the socialist aspects but I never argued that China was capitalist; I said it is a hybrid unique system so I will point out the capitalist/free market aspects.

The Chinese people are more and more hungry for personal success and wealth. They had given up when China was fully socialist under Mao; now you have people dying to get rich and eager to buy luxury items to show it off. This is clearly a cultural trend towards capitalism.

State-owned industries are crucial to China's growth but they are becoming a smaller and smaller piece of the pie as China's private industries boom and its billionaires sprout, putting more and more wealth in private rather than collective hands.

Wealth inequality has decreased in the short term but actually increased in the long term. China, in its olden full socialist days, was full of poor people who dressed in uniform with a red star and wealth-flaunting was non-existent. Then, as you said, in the frenzy of the 90's and 2000's, the wealth gap exploded due to lack of regulation. Now, it is narrowing back as a modern economy but the gap today is still far larger than it was when China was fully socialist. We still have people working 16 hour assembly lines who share an underground apartment with 5 other guys and we have the rich who eat meals that are more expensive than the monthly salary of the poor. (It's a wealth gap still greater than the majority of the developed nations in the West.) This does not point to a nation moving away from capitalism towards socialism but it points to a country that was first completely socialist, then opened up to the free market as a young economy, but then started to get the hang of things and regulate more and more like a modern mature economy.
In many ways, the success of the Chinese Model is blazing a new path for the progress of humanity.
Yes, the Chinese model, not plain old socialism.
 
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hashtagpls

Senior Member
Registered Member
CHINESE ARTIFICIAL SUN

Advancing forward! China's man-made sun sets a world record of 100 million degrees and 100 seconds

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HEFEI, May 28 (Xinhua) -- Chinese scientists have set a new world record of achieving a plasma temperature of 120 million degrees Celsius for 101 seconds in the latest experiment on Friday, a key step toward the test running of a fusion reactor.

On 28 MAY 2021, the Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST) at the Institute of Plasma Physics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (ASIPP) in Hefei, capital of east China's Anhui Province, set a new world record, successfully achieving a plasma temperature of 120 million degrees Celsius for 101 seconds, and also 160 million degrees Celsius for 20 seconds, extending the previous own record of 100 million degrees Celsius for 20 seconds by five times. This further proves the feasibility of nuclear FUSION energy.

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The ultimate goal of EAST, located at ASIPP in Hefei, is to create nuclear FUSION like the Sun, using deuterium abound in the sea to provide a steady stream of clean energy.

It is estimated that the deuterium in one liter of seawater can produce, through fusion reaction, the amount of energy equivalent to 300 liters of gasoline.

Around 300 scientists and engineers mobilized to support the operation of the doughnut-shaped experiment facility. Preparation and upgrading work for the experiment started about a year ago.

"It's a huge achievement in China's physics and engineering fields. The experiment's success lays the foundation for China to build its own nuclear FUSION energy station," said Song Yuntao, director of ASIPP.

In November 2018, EAST generated an electron temperature of 100 million degrees Celsius in its core plasma, nearly seven times the temperature of the Sun's interior. Last year, EAST achieved a plasma temperature of 100 million degrees Celsius lasting for 20 seconds.

The raw materials required for the "artificial sun" are almost unlimited on Earth. Therefore, FUSION energy is considered the ideal "ultimate energy"!

FUSION energy, one of the greatest frontiers of today's physics, requires not only top scientific research ability but also massive experimental instruments.

Since its operation in 2006, the Chinese-designed and -developed EAST has been an open test platform for Chinese and international scientists to conduct fusion-related experiments.

(more pics at site)
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That’s hotter than the sun even
 

BrightFuture

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Registered Member
I couldn't possibly forget about China. China's not really socialist anymore; it was decades ago, and it is still in name only. Nowadays, everyone in China works his/her ass off for the rich elite and to become the rich elite and there is nothing more frightening to them than being poor. In this aspect, it is more capitalist and cut throat than the most competitive of Western capitalist nations. Since China integrated more and more capitalist/free market strategies into its system, it has moved away from real socialism and towards real success.
Here we go again. Saying China is not socialist is a spit in the face of all of those who fight every day to improve China, and a spit in the face of all of those who bled and gave their lives for China and communism. It's insulting that you call yourself 满腔热血. 如果你会汉语的话,那我诚实地建议你看一下这篇由习近平写的文章:
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You seem to not realise that what makes China remain together, and remain great is communism and socialism (in the article I sent you, Xi itself acknowledges this fact). If China were to become a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (capitalist country), then China would basically become America 2.0 (aka a shit hole riddled with corruption, poverty, injustice and disregard for life). Socialism, communism and capitalism are much more than mere economical systems. China is socialist to the core.

I study economy in a Chinese university, one of the first thing they teach us is the difference between 社会主义市场经济 and 资本主义市场经济. Maybe you should learn about those concepts to not continue mistake the Chinese system for simple capitalism. All of those who defend the undefendable (aka capitalism as a long term economical system) should get rid of those brain worms and learn from the motherland. Your Western education (American to be more precise) is showing.
 
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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Nobody has; that's because socialist successes live only in imagination.

Socialism is like Tai Chi; in theory, it is invincible as it turns all of your opponent's force against him. However, no one can actually "master" it, so in practice, any combat martial art (sparring, not forms only) will maul a Tai Chi master like he were a child, and a funny child at that.

Did we have a previous analysis? I don't remember the last time you dared reply me! But you are barking up the wrong tree. I never said that China is capitalist; I said that China incorporates many aspects of capitalism into its system, which also has some socialist elements and elements that are completely new. That is China's system; it is neither capitalism nor socialism so it cannot be counted in either camp but amongst the countries that can be solidly classified as socialist (North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba) and capitalist (USA, South Korea, every country in the EU, etc...), it's clear to see the inferiority of socialism.

Those are what have caused China to grow explosively; before them, China was weak and poor like North Korea.

You are confused on the cause and effect. The USSR used socialism, causing permanent wounds that led to its demise. China tried socialism but quickly realized that although it had some nice principles, it does not work as a whole system so China fashioned its own political system and it triumphed. The USSR died because socialism does not work while China navigated that obstacle and got off the sinking ship before it was too late. The USSR became more capitalistic at the end not because it was drunk on success and riches but because it was trying to save its decaying body from socialism.
As you pointed out in another post - USSR used aspects of free market much like China does. USSR in the 70s and 80s wasn't very different to China in the 90s in terms of economic policy. If the Soviet companies had become as successful as Huawei and others did the Soviet Union would be similar to China today.

Ultimately, I think the biggest difference between western economic model and China's is the policy on big corporations. Even though China has some very big private corporations and some very rich individuals, they are monitored very closely.

If China was a capitalist country today companies like Alibaba and the like would be influencing policy and would be more powerful than the politicians, just like they are in America today.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Here we go again.
You never resolved it the first time. I refuted you and you went silent. If you defeat my point, it will never show up again.
Saying China is not socialist is a spit in the face of all of those who fight every day to improve China, and a spit in the face of all of those who bled and gave their lives for China and communism. It's insulting that you call yourself 满腔热血. 如果你会汉语的话,那我诚实地建议你看一下这篇文章:
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I don't care about anyone who fought and died for just communism but those who died for China (which happened to be communist at the time) are in my heart.
You seem to not realise that what makes China remans together, and remain great is communism and socialism (in the article I sent you, Xi itself acknowledges this fact).
Blood keeps China together. China has been through dynasties, war-torn eras regulated by foreigners, a communist country, and a country with a unique system throughout the centuries and what kept it together was blood and DNA. Socialism is what made China like North Korea for a few decades; its own system makes it great today.
If China were to become a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (capitalist country), then China would basically become America 2.0 (aka a shit hole riddled with corruption, poverty, injustice and disregard for life).
That "shithole" is the most powerful country on earth. If that's what it takes for China to beat it, so be it but China has a better way in its own political system. No socialist country can even try to compare to "shithole" America.
Socialism, communism and capitalism are much more than an economical system. China is socialist to the core.
China was founded on socialism at its core but luckily, it got off that sinking ship (taking some salvageable parts with it) or it would have ended up like the USSR or North Korea. China just hasn't bothered to update the world on its real time ideology because hey, the less your opponent understand you, the better.
I study economy in a Chinese university, one of the first thing they teach us is the difference between 社会主义市场经济 and 资本主义市场经济. Maybe you should learn about those concepts to not continue mistake the Chinese system for simple capitalism.
Oh, then it is you who needs to study English because you cannot read my arguments. When did I ever say that China is a simple capitalism? What does this say?

From #13573: "I never said that China is capitalist; I said that China incorporates many aspects of capitalism into its system, which also has some socialist elements and elements that are completely new. That is China's system; it is neither capitalism nor socialism..."

From #13575: "You've focused on the socialist aspects but I never argued that China was capitalist; I said it is a hybrid unique system so I will point out the capitalist/free market aspects."

And my girlfriend is a Chinese PhD student in economics. I actually asked her how Chinese people feel about China saying it is socialist and her first sentence was, "It's a joke because there's no incentive to perform in a socialist system."
All of those who defend the undefendable (aka capitalism as a long term system) should get rid of those brain worms and learn from the motherland.
Which brainworms? The ones that told you I think China is a simple capitalist system? LOL Yes, you should get rid of them. Try asking for Panacur at the vet.
Your Western education (American to be more precise) is showing.
The Western education that Chinese people pay houses-worth of money to study abroad and bring back to China to diversify knowledge and methods? Yes, thanks.
 
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emblem21

Major
Registered Member

As a continuation of an earlier response, he is yet. Another demonstration in the strength of China’s policies and long term strategy. By being a nation that helps rather then pillages, China has a continent full of resources that China can trade for from food to metals and more while other nations in Europe and America (yet those crazy people who still does their best to hide their colonial misdeeds) only now realise that they have screwed themselves over big time when it comes to future investment that they have had decades to lay the foundation for. Now any apology is going to be near impossible to make without some very serious concessions because let’s face it, all this is only happening because China is strong. All of this rides on the USA now, should the USA lose its grip on the world, well all of the nations harmed by the USA and Europe are going to have a very rude awakening on what it is going to be like on the receiving end of the pain these colonialist have cause for centuries while using ‘human rights’ as a way to hide the blame. And this was done without China going to war like some would suggest them to do and this China should continue with the way things go since right now, China along with Russia and all nations that the west has harmed will soon reap the rewards while the western nations that are trapped under massive debt are about to lose their houses in more ways then one
 
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