Mars War: Blood on the red planet.

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
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A YouTube video claims an ancient alien weapon or a gun has been discovered on Mars.

Mars Curiosity Rover has uncovered yet more compelling evidence of life on Mars – with a strange rock formation which looks eerily like artillery.

Oh that's funny Just last week I was on
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Theorizing about what a war with mars would look like and my idea was a artillery cannon and tanks, As the Atmosphere would not support fixed wing or rotary wing air support.
Artillery and tank projectiles would travel further than it would on Earth.
So would laser based weapons.
But lasers would require optics that can be damaged by dust storms. and lasers are line of sight, Cannon would have longer range and even a tank could be used as a howitzer or even anti space ship weapon.
A large wing area and a veryyyyyy long runway.
making it very impractical. I figure the only "Air Support" Would be orbital.... Okay That's it MARs War thread.
Ahhh yes, Orbital CAS....... My favorite. As I ways say: “Just nuke them from orbit”.

A toast with Malbec to you sir
Okay So this kinda started in the NASA & World Space Exploration...News, Views, Photos & videos thread.
So lets mission statement. this is intended to be Hard Science. Please no phasers, photon torpedos, The Force, Warp drive ( unless you can back it with the laws of Physics) We can expand this into Space battles though but please keep it real. This is a hypothetical to keep it safe lets not make it nation to nation but planet to planet. Earth is the Blue force, Mars the Red force. it's still human on human fighting, Hard science has yet to prove any Martians beyond Microbes.

now then in reply to "Just nuke it from orbit."
[video=youtube_share;hKDXaX07APM]http://youtu.be/hKDXaX07APM[/video]
This is obviously not hard science but still gives the gist of that. but here is what I was thinking more along the lines of.
[video=youtube_share;rx5XyspHldk]http://youtu.be/rx5XyspHldk[/video]
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Now then when I was on FWS, here more or less were my thoughts. First as Mars environment is not hospitable to humans with out terraforming chances are Infantry fighting is out. Or rather in, as in urban combat in habit domes. Fighting would be centered around these which house the population and the essentials of life. Battles between wound then be fought to enter the domes. This would result in possibly modified tank wars where in tanks escort infantry platforms that are designed with a airlock to allow breaching into habitats. To fight them off tanks and artillery both orbital and land based would be used destroy enemy tanks and perhaps as the WMD of mars. To crack the domes. Now obviously this leaves the threat from orbit as the biggest problem. If your habit is breached in a major way you can have hundreds of lives lost in seconds. And if your a free mars revolution, your biggest fear is that earth will send ships at you. Space craft with orbital bombardment systems would be easy if you have colonized mars.
To fend them off I imagined use of a Gerald Bull style cannon. Such a gun could be built using the same machinery used to build life-support systems in the domes and assembled in the surface of Mars. The US and Canadian government proved that such guns can propel shells into orbit of earth on mars they would be far more potent. A shell made with a simple reaction control system boosters and a navigation system could be sent into a interception trajectory on earth launched ships. Since any ship transiting from Earth to mars would be highly visible and require months to transit. a number of firings could send a lethal volume of projectiles at the inbound intruder. The rounds could be nuclear proximity mines or just kinetic energy rounds. Since they would be more or less unpowered until final attack chances of detection would be small. In essence the cruse missles if space.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Now then when I was on FWS, here more or less were my thoughts. First as Mars environment is not hospitable to humans with out terraforming chances are Infantry fighting is out.



The only problem with trying to terraform Mars is that Mars does not have a strong magnetic field. Consequently any denser atmosphere will be “blown” off of the plant by solar wind. Outdoor living on Mars is not a reality. Underground containment structures will be required.

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Sounds like full scale maneuver warfare is out of the question. Specialized strike units (SAS, SEAL) to infiltrate and destroy enemy bunkers seems more likely. Low density open artic terrain type combat

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

solarz

Brigadier
Sounds like full scale maneuver warfare is out of the question. Specialized strike units (SAS, SEAL) to infiltrate and destroy enemy bunkers seems more likely. Low density open artic terrain type combat

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

This is where my Power Armor idea would shine. Since maneuvering on Mars requires an environment suit anyway, we might as well make that suit heavily armored. Weight problems would be largely offset by the low gravity on Mars, and bipedal locomotion would be much better suited for the rough martian terrain than any wheel or tracks.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The only problem with trying to terraform Mars is that Mars does not have a strong magnetic field. Consequently any denser atmosphere will be “blown” off of the plant by solar wind. Outdoor living on Mars is not a reality. Underground containment structures will be required.

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
I had a thought about that. I was thinking that there may be a set of technologies here on earth that could generate a powerful electromagnetic field that could act as a artificial version and offer at least partially the protection that Earth's natural magnetic field does from radiation and solar winds. HARP. I know conspiracy theory territory and aluminum foil hat time. I have to do some more research on it, but if the magnetic field of earth is just that the. A few HARP stations placed on mars nigh do the same thing.

Sounds like full scale maneuver warfare is out of the question. Specialized strike units (SAS, SEAL) to infiltrate and destroy enemy bunkers seems more likely. Low density open artic terrain type combat

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
as I figured more or less. Mars infantry would be urban and bunker fighters trained in close quarters and breaching techniques. More like Swat team. As such the weapons and emphasis would likely be different from earth. On Mars the Sub machine gun, and the Shotgun would take the top marks. The rifle and machine gun falling back in importance. As to maneuver it depends upon who is fighting with who. If its Blue (Earth) vs Red (Mars) then tanks are likely to be bombed out. If its Red (Mars) on red then it moves back to tanks. Why? Well infantry on the surface is suicidal. At first arctic combat would seem the best match but take a moment if mars is unterraformed. Then the atmosphere is lethal. That means the grunts are wearing there environment. Martian atmosphere is toxic to humans, its atmospheric pressure is to low to support human life and its radiation count it to high, its temperature range makes the coldest winter on earth down right balmy. Any penetration of the infantrymans suit and he's as good as dead.
He would have to wear full body armor. I mean Full Body Armor, everything has to be protected. So that makes his suit heavyweight. Limits his mobility unless its powered armor but even then there are limits. Add to this that he has a time limit. His atmosphere is contained in a life support system likely on his back or chest. That gives him only so Long to be in operation any longer and he begins to asphyxiate. The longest EVA on record is eight and a quarter hours, and that was pushing it. Even if the infantry unit has a buddy store generally life support packs max out at eight hours with a thirty minute reserve. So 17 hours on the surface. Not long enough for most tasks. That means that if its fighting from hub to hub there needs to be a way of getting to and fro as well as having a environment to rest and recover in. Hence a APC. Likely with its own environment system, a small head and bunks, with a airlock system so that they could force entry into a habitation without killing everyone inside. Now if you place a vehicle on the surface to breach enemy defenses the enemy is going to place weapons outside to kill it. So it has to be armed to defend itself so likely armored and armed with unmanned weapons. And if you do that then the enemy is going to build vehicles to attack on the move. Hence tanks. Given the Martian terrain and potential threats, tanks and apcs of mars would need lots of traction, heavyweight and the ability to put up with extreme winds and storms. So I suspect it might resemble the old soviet Object 279 tank prototype mind you with major tech upgrades.
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solarz

Brigadier
If its Blue (Earth) vs Red (Mars) then tanks are likely to be bombed out. If its Red (Mars) on red then it moves back to tanks. Why? Well infantry on the surface is suicidal. At first arctic combat would seem the best match but take a moment if mars is unterraformed. Then the atmosphere is lethal. That means the grunts are wearing there environment. Martian atmosphere is toxic to humans, its atmospheric pressure is to low to support human life and its radiation count it to high, its temperature range makes the coldest winter on earth down right balmy. Any penetration of the infantrymans suit and he's as good as dead.
He would have to wear full body armor. I mean Full Body Armor, everything has to be protected. So that makes his suit heavyweight. Limits his mobility unless its powered armor but even then there are limits. Add to this that he has a time limit. His atmosphere is contained in a life support system likely on his back or chest. That gives him only so Long to be in operation any longer and he begins to asphyxiate. The longest EVA on record is eight and a quarter hours, and that was pushing it. Even if the infantry unit has a buddy store generally life support packs max out at eight hours with a thirty minute reserve. So 17 hours on the surface. Not long enough for most tasks. That means that if its fighting from hub to hub there needs to be a way of getting to and fro as well as having a environment to rest and recover in. Hence a APC.

Before we get into the issue of transportation, it's important to think about how Martian colonies would be laid out. The same transportation issues that would plague a strike force would equally (if not more so) plague the colonists.

Realistically, Martian colonies need supplies from Earth. This means colonies need to be close to a drop point. If Martian colonies want to export anything, so as to pay for itself, that means a space port. Trade logistics means individual colonist groups would have to be close to the space port, as otherwise they would be spending more supplies (air and energy) on travel than they would be getting in return.

This is why I think we wouldn't see isolated colonies like on Earth. Instead, we would see environmentally sealed cities centered around a space port. Any martian warfare would be between those cities and involve very little infantry travel over martian "wilderness".

Environmental suits, however, would still be critical, as without them, defenders could simply seal off a section and vent its atmosphere.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Mars infantry would be urban and bunker fighters trained in close quarters and breaching techniques. More like Swat team. As such the weapons and emphasis would likely be different from earth. On Mars the Sub machine gun, and the Shotgun would take the top marks. The rifle and machine gun falling back in importance. As to maneuver it depends upon who is fighting with who......

Good minds think alike. :D


HARP. I know conspiracy theory territory and aluminum foil hat time. I have to do some more research on it, but if the magnetic field of earth is just that the. A few HARP stations placed on mars nigh do the same thing.

Are you talk about something like this TerraN:
zHNgPir.gif

The ultimate in conspiracy theories. We can use it to find ancient temples and mystical sites on Mars. LOL

This is a map of a Planetary Energy Grid system based on Buckminister Fullers's geodesic dome model.
William Becker and Bethe Hagens published this map in 1978. They call it the pattern of "Earthstar".
Richard Leviton presents the Grid as a "interactive spiritual megalithic temple. The Earth Grid is seen as a living hologram of the organization of the solar system, intricately linked with the life and destiny of human beings."
Some theorists postulate that there is a relationshp between the pattern of UFO sightings and the
magnetio-vortex-gravity anomalies in the Grid.

David Wilcox explains how to use the energy grid at:
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Now pouring Malbec in low 'G'
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The colonial structure of mars depends upon the economic growth model of mars and the Solar system as a whole. Mining on mars is often used as the basis in science fiction, but reality is there is nothing we know of on mars we can't get here on terra. The most likely money maker of mars is as a processing refining and shipping hub for resource mining operations from the outer solar system. Helium 3 from the outer gas giants, raw materials from the asteroid belt. These industries will demand positions closest to your space ports.

Second to this is Mars own needs. Power can be established via wind turbines, Helium3 imported from the Gas Giants of the outer solar system, solar power via collectors mounted atop the habitats. Shelter can be built both in and on mars using materials from the outer solar system and the planet its self. Water can be taken from the poles and under the surface. Filtered and treated by the colonies in plants built into the very earliest stages of development. And finally food. This is the most likely to be imported by mars from earth but here is the issue how much can be imported economically? I mean assume Mars and earth have decided on a uniform exchange rate for Martian currency, (lets call it the Marvin :p) now assume that one Marvin is equal to one dollar. Now on earth I can get a slice of pizza from a restaurant for about three dollars. Now take the ingredients for that same pizza and send them to mars. That going to be three billion Marvins for a slice. The cost of processing that ingredients is negligible and done all the time but the fuel for sending them makes it astronomic. Now we need to consider ways of reducing the price, assume ultra light weight packaging, that might shave a few thousand Dollars, assume dehydration, there is maybe a billion dollars. Now assume that instead of rocket fuel we use some other means to orbit the ingredients and then ship them to mars like say using a startram then docking with a ship using extremely efficient ion drive. Down to a mere 800million Marvin per slice... What a bargain. So Mars needs agriculture. Lets assume then the the wheat, the tomatoes, the peppers most of the ingredients are in fact not imported but grown in agro domes on mars using Hydroponics and and climate controlled greenhouses . That cuts our slice down to imported Oil, eggs, cheese, pepperoni and meats. So may be it would be 100 Marvin a pizza. Obviously dominos would make a killing. Cheap things on earth would be pretty pricey to import on Mars. Even with regular trips back and forth. Now 100 Marvin a slice is pretty steep but if you are processing materials from the ore cloud working on Mars your probably making enough Marvin to afford it.
* Note prices are not actual,
the water plants the power plants the habits and Green houses are likely to be farther from the space port. Additionally the its likely that there would not be one single unified colony. You might have a main colony operated by a government like the US or PRC or Russia or even the EU then off of this there could be smaller corporate colonies. These might be somewhat self sufficient operating purely for the corporation that owns them. They could have there own small space port for shipping product and receiving raw materials. So there could be the EU dome with residences and its governance the off of that you have the BP dome processing Helium 3 for commercial purposes. Now between them there would likely be established some form of transport like a vacuums monorail with a climate controlled car for personal transport. Workers coming in from earth working at the BP refinery dome could arrive at the EU dome then transit to the BP dome for work.

But what happens if a hostile force takes the BP dome? What if. They cut the rail way between it and the main EU colony? Then do you suit up and start walking? Sure there will have to be EVA gear on mars but with at a absolute stretch 25 hours of O2 how long will it last and how much can you get done in that time. A vehicle can close the distance between colonies faster and would slow support for your power Eva suits charging there batteries, and O2 it would alow the troops to rest, breif, eat and whatever else they need before suiting up and operating. The issues for operations though suggest that fighting is more likely indoors then out in the sands of mars.
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
This is the most likely to be imported by mars from earth but here is the issue how much can be imported economically? I mean assume Mars and earth have decided on a uniform exchange rate for Martian currency, (lets call it the Marvin :p) now assume that one Marvin is equal to one dollar. Now on earth I can get a slice of pizza from a restaurant for about three dollars. Now take the ingredients for that same pizza and send them to mars. That going to be three billion Marvins for a slice. The cost of processing that ingredients is negligible and done all the time but the fuel for sending them makes it astronomic. Now we need to consider ways of reducing the price, assume ultra light weight packaging, that might shave a few thousand Dollars, assume dehydration, there is maybe a billion dollars.


Relating the topic from the Martian Pizza. I would be economically unfeasible to transport food supplies to mars. For a long-term settlement, there is probably no other option than growing food on Mars.

There are a multitude of crop plants that could possible grow on Mars. Granted that this would need to be done in a greenhouse on the surface (for sunlight) and in a valley or large crater (to protect from wind). The structure would need to be designed to withstand Martian wind storms and have the follow equipment as a minimum resources for operations: Run at low pressure (e.g.,1/2 atmosphere to reduce leakage and structural requirements); pre-planted media or growing system; “priming” volume of water and required gases; recycle the transpired water back to the roots (i.e., close the water loop); thermal control system, including internal air recirculation; harvest and store oxygen generated from plants; and use in-situ resources (water, atmosphere, etc.).

The prospect of successful food growth on Mars is promising in part because plant waste there could be composted and mixed with Martian soil to make more effective crops, a similar process to what occurs in lava fields when plant species slowly colonize a basaltic landscape and lend their organic materials to it. This could be augment with the addition of human waste from the sewage treatment facility.

Ideas to consider for greenhouse would be a robotic harvesting of the crops; one crop cycle per greenhouse and then shutting down; drying crops in place (e.g., wheat, soybean, or potatoes); replanting capabilities (i.e. more than one crop); retrieving water and/or oxygen in system prior to shut down; supplying carbon dioxide as plants grow; opening thermal covers in day and closing the covers at night; generating photovoltaic power capable of running control systems and/or opening and closing covers; viable as a kit for deployment in arid regions on Earth; if the habitat occupants can visit the greenhouse and harvest the food themselves; and functions the greenhouse could serve the habitat beyond food/oxygen generation and water purification. CO2 could be used as a pressurizing gas to offset leakage.

The only thing that you could probable not grow on Mars would be the cheese. However you could consider soy cheese.
Once my descendants arrive on Mars they can then begin planting grape vines and produce Martian wine. If it is red wine it can be called Marsbec, if it is white white wine it can be called Marscato.


Cheers TerraN! Here’s to ½ g toast with Marsbec
 
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