Korean War 70 years later Win Lose and A draw


Quickie

Major
Sure, at the same time let's also double the number of casualties and captured people at Lowesoft as well. Since "historical inaccuracies and all".
And it is the VOC, not the Dutch Republic that the Chinese was fighting at the time.
And of we can speculate about the number of people involved in battle then we can also speculate about the finances of the company at that time then too, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, bumping it down one or 2 trillion might be a good start.
Let's not forget that the sum estimate was calculated at the peak of the companies growth which is calculated to be in the late 1690s. Not 1662.
Double? How so? 20% to 30% difference in terms of numbers killed. Numbers of captured? Look at the numbers above. Could be about the same.

And it is the VOC, not the Dutch Republic that the Chinese was fighting at the time.
So? The British East India Company was also a VOC. The Dutch East India Company had the backing of the monarch and the country if they were really intent on going big like British East India Company.
 
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Viktor Jav

Senior Member
Registered Member
Double? How so? 20% to 30% in terms of numbers killed. Numbers of captured? Look at the numbers above. Could be about
Hey you are the one who start it by assuming that an equal number of natives supported the Dutch on Zeelandia.
If you can do that then so can I. I can say that the number of people killed and captured at Lowestoft is vastly higher then what is recorded. or I can also say that the number of natives that supported the Dutch was never more than 100.
If you want to play the speculation game then it is only fair that I can play it too.

So? The British East India Company was a VOC also. The Dutch East India Company has the backing the monarch and the country if they were really intent on going big like British East India Company.
Because the company cannot draw upon the same resources that the Dutch Republic could at the time and there is a fine line between who runs the day to day operations of the company. We already cover this before.
 

Quickie

Major
Hey you are the one who start it by assuming that an equal number of natives supported the Dutch on Zeelandia.
If you can do that then so can I. I can say that the number of people killed and captured at Lowestoft is vastly higher then what is recorded. or I can also say that the number of natives that supported the Dutch was never more than 100.
If you want to play the speculation game then it is only fair that I can play it too.


Because the company cannot draw upon the same resources that the Dutch Republic could at the time and there is a fine line between who runs the day to day operations of the company. We already cover this before.
I made a reasonably best guest. unlike you who simply threw in the numbers. As an example of your ridiculous number of 100 native allies:

100 native allies + 900 resident Dutch soldier + 700 enforcement soldier = 1700 soldiers/allies

With 1600 people killed, that would have meant that about the entire Dutch side was wiped out, which was not the case as according to the Wiki article the Dutch did in the end surrender.

Because the company cannot draw upon the same resources that the Dutch Republic could at the time and there is a fine line between who runs the day to day operations of the company. We already cover this before.
You're the one who is trying to go in a circle.

Your kind of thinking is too simplistic. The kind of company we're talking about is not your usual present-day company in the stock market, who is only interested in " running the day to day operations of the company". Those East India Companies were vehicles for European countries to colonize the lands of natives of other countries. They have all the financial and political backing of the ruling class whose real interest isn't just making a profit, but to rule over the land, natural resources and wealth of natives land.

A good example is British East India which, with the political and financial backing of the monarchy and the ruling class, has succeeded in conquering and ruling India after having to fight against the formidable resident Moghul Dynasty.

Here we're not even talking about a country as big as India, and as big an enemy as the Moghul Dynasty. The resources to colonize the much smaller Taiwan Island that had none of the resident enemies but only natives that can be turned into allies would be a fraction of the example above.

But, as things had turned out to be too much formidable than the Dutch had thought even against a small party of Ming loyalist of what is the remnant of the beginning of the breakup of the Ming Dynasty, the Dutch had to entirely abandon the idea of colonizing Taiwan Island.
 

Viktor Jav

Senior Member
Registered Member
I made a reasonably best guest. unlike you who simply threw in the numbers. As an example of your ridiculous number of 100 native allies:

100 native allies + 900 resident Dutch soldier + 700 enforcement soldier = 1700 soldiers/allies

With 1600 people killed, that would have meant that about the entire Dutch side was wiped out, which was not the case as according to the Wiki article the Dutch did in the end surrender.
Which in comparison to Lowestotf : 2000 killed (lowest) 2500 killed highest. + around 2000 captured.
See the difference in manpower and finances ?


You're the one who is trying to go in a circle.

Your kind of thinking is too simplistic. The kind of company we're talking about is not your usual present-day company in the stock market, who is only interested in " running the day to day operations of the company". Those East India Companies were vehicles for European countries to colonize the lands of natives of other countries. They have all the financial and political backing of the ruling class whose real interest isn't just making a profit, but to rule over the land, natural resources and wealth of natives land.

A good example is British East India which, with the political and financial backing of the monarchy and the ruling class, has succeeded in conquering and ruling India after having to fight against the formidable resident Moghul Dynasty.

Here we're not even talking about a country as big as India, and as big an enemy as the Moghul Dynasty. The resources to colonize the much smaller Taiwan Island that had none of the resident enemies but only natives that can be turned into allies would be a fraction of the example above.

But, as things had turned out to be too much formidable than the Dutch had thought even against a small party of Ming loyalist of what is the remnant of the beginning of the breakup of the Ming Dynasty, the Dutch had to entirely abandon the idea of colonizing Taiwan Island.
Lobbing the VOC and the Dutch Republic as a single entity is the very definition of simplistic. At no point in history was the company in command of the Dutch States Army or the Dutch States Navy of a total of 135 ships at the time of 1662. It instead had to rely on a much smaller fleet of 40 ships and a army of a mere 10,000 that is scattered from South Africa to India. They may originate from the Netherlands but that's where it ends.
In 1672 the Dutch Republic raised a total of 90,000 troops for the Franc Dutch War, and in 1689 that ballooned to 130,000.
The numbers and finances disparity between the 2 is so great that no comparison can be drawn between the Dutch conflicts in Europe and that of Zeelandia.
 
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Just4Fun

Junior Member
Registered Member
You shouldn't forget that WW2 had not officially ended at the start of the Korean War.

Then, I wonder when, how, by what mechanism, with what final results, and with what historic makers has this WW2 been officially ended. Could you illustrate? Or, maybe we are still living in this WW2 time?
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
Then, I wonder when, how, by what mechanism, with what final results, and with what historic makers has this WW2 been officially ended. Could you illustrate? Or, maybe we are still living in this WW2 time?
Yeah, that was a bit too much on my part. As I corrected myself in the subsequent post, the war between the Allied powers and Japan had not been officially concluded by the start of the Korean War. For most parties, that war was officialy concluded by the San Francisco Peace Treaty and the Sino-Japanese peace treaty.

However, Russia and Japan have yet to sign a peace treaty.

The USSR was deeply negative of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, and refused to sign it. Here's what they had to say about how China was treated: "As regards the American-British draft peace treaty with Japan in the part pertaining to territorial questions, the Delegation of the USSR considers it necessary to state that this draft grossly violates the indisputable rights of China to the return of integral parts of Chinese territory: Taiwan, the Pescadores, the Paracel and other islands severed from it by the Japanese militarists. The draft contains only a reference to the renunciation by Japan of its rights to these territories but intentionally omits any mention of the further fate of these territories. In reality, however, Taiwan and the said islands have been captured by the United States of America and the United States wants to legalize these aggressive actions in the draft peace treaty under discussion. Meanwhile the fate of these territories should be absolutely clear -- they must be returned to the Chinese people, the master of their land."
 
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Quickie

Major
Which in comparison to Lowestotf : 2000 killed (lowest) 2500 killed highest. + around 2000 captured.
See the difference in manpower and finances ?




Lobbing the VOC and the Dutch Republic as a single entity is the very definition of simplistic. At no point in history was the company in command of the Dutch States Army or the Dutch States Navy of a total of 135 ships at the time of 1662. It instead had to rely on a much smaller fleet of 40 ships and a army of a mere 10,000 that is scattered from South Africa to India. They may originate from the Netherlands but that's where it ends.
In 1672 the Dutch Republic raised a total of 90,000 troops for the Franc Dutch War, and in 1689 that ballooned to 130,000.
The numbers and finances disparity between the 2 is so great that no comparison can be drawn between the Dutch conflicts in Europe and that of Zeelandia.
It's slightly less the numbers killed and about the same numbers captured. You include the 800 civilians, the numbers captured could be even much more than 2000.

Lobbing the VOC and the Dutch Republic as a single entity is the very definition of simplistic.
I didn't say they were a single entity but the ruling class of the country and the stakeholders of the company were the same people!

You kept on talking about the limiting factor of financing a battle. The British East India Company was able to finance a private army of 280,000 (Indian soldiers and a smaller number of British soldiers) in India, about twice that of the British Army!

And why do you always pull up the number of soldiers in a battle? The war between the Ming Dynasty forces and Manchus' was known to involve 500,000 soldiers on one side alone.

You don't need to employ 100,000 soldiers to capture a tiny Taiwan island defended by a small number of Ming loyalists.
With the political will from the monarch and ruling class, the Dutch East India Company (among the wealthiest of East India Companies, if not the wealthiest) certainly had the resources to build up the necessary matching number of soldiers and ships (no need the big numbers as mentioned above) to try to recapture Taiwan Island from the Ming loyalists had they thought they had a reasonable chance of success.
 

solarz

Brigadier
One interesting comparison I have yet to see is between the Korean War and the Imjin War.

The Imjin War resulted in the withdrawal of the Japanese invaders, and subsequent peace between China and Japan for some 300 years. However, it also put a strain on the Ming economy and contributed to the decline of the dynasty and its eventual demise only 40-some years later.

The Korean War, in contrast, resulted in a stalemate between North and South Korea that lasted 70 years and ongoing. It directly contributed to the greatest disasters in the history of the PRC (GLF famine and Cultural Revolution), led to the loss of Taiwan and the initiation the American containment policy against China. Yet, 70 years after the war, the PRC is stronger than ever, poised to retake China's central role in global culture and politics.

After the Imjin War, Ming China became mired in peasant rebellions and began fighting a war against the Manchu Qing. This resulted in the further weakening of the Ming until it was toppled by the peasant rebellion led by Li Zicheng.

After the Korean War, the PRC fought wars against the USSR, India, and Vietnam. Although the GLF famines resulted in mass deaths in the countryside, and the CR resulted in mass sufferings in the urban regions, no armed rebellions ever materialized. Somehow the PRC plowed through those tumultuous years and came out stronger than ever.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
I don't think Korean war cause the GLF or cultural revolution It is separate thing. GLF was initiated to speed up the industrialization of China and increase yield of agriculture. Since most of the leader of that era are basically ignorant about economy All they know is mass movement and how to prosecute the war . Thinking that everything can be solved with mass movement
So they think mass movement in economy will speed up the industrialization of China and neglecting the agriculture
Couple with the worst natural disaster of dust bowl and the plague of insect exacerbate the situation.
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A lot of turn coat Chinese like Chang and Halliday sensationalize and exaggerate the GRF in order to sell books
The same with Dikotter they are just in to sell the book and keep raising the victim to ridiculously 70 million people

Western analyst as usual put the blame squarely on Mao policy murderous plot and exaggerate the number of death based on statistical analysis by american demography of reduced number of child birth. The sinologist Robert Macfarquhar spread the propaganda aided by CIA money

Western writers on the subject have taken a completely disproportionate view of the period, mesmerized, as they are, by massive death toll figures from dubious sources. They concentrate only on policy excesses and it is likely that their views on the damage that these did are greatly exaggerated. There has been a failure to understand how some of the policies developed in the Great Leap Forward actually benefited the Chinese people, once the initial disruption was over.

U.S. state agencies have provided assistance to those with a negative attitude to Maoism (and communism in general) throughout the post-war period. For example, the veteran historian of Maoism Roderick MacFarquhar edited The China Quarterly in the 1960s. This magazine published allegations about massive famine deaths that have been quoted ever since. It later emerged that this journal received money from a CIA front organisation, as MacFarquhar admitted in a recent letter to The London Review of Books. (Roderick MacFarquhar states that he did not know the money was coming from the CIA while he was editing The China Quarterly.)

Now cultural revolution can be squarely blame on Mao. He is the one initiated those mass movement to guard his legacy and obsession with perpetual revolution less China revert back to capitalism. Which ironically save the CCP rule and provide the immense thrust that propel Chinese economy
 

Viktor Jav

Senior Member
Registered Member
It's slightly less the numbers killed and about the same numbers captured. You include the 800 civilians, the numbers captured could be even much more than 2000.
It is rather convenient that the number of people who were actually captured in the siege was unrecorded so people can inflate the numbers accordingly. And even if we factor in the civilians like you so desperately want the numbers will still look like this

1) Zeelandia : Troops=1800 (highest estimate)
Civillians= 800 (lets generously assume that every women child and infirmed people held a weapon that day, which is unlikely but hey lets give you a crutch here)
Total : 2600.

2) Lowestoft : Number of people killed (2500 highest estimate)
Number of people captured (somewhere around 2000)
Total : 4500 , and this is not factoring in the rest of the Dutch who participated in the battle but was unharmed and/or escaped with more than 96 ships suriving that conflict and for a ship of the line the average sailors was around 200 to 600. The total number of people add up would be 20 x 96= 19200 (EDIT : The Dutch Fleet at the time consisted of 103 ships carrying 4,869 guns and 21,613 men which was divided into several squadrons.

You can try to whitewash the number of people being killed as slight (despite the fact that not all people at Zeelandia died in combat) but the simple fact remain that more people participated and was killed or captured in a single battle that took place in a single day than a siege that took near a year.

I didn't say they were a single entity but the ruling class of the country and the stakeholders of the company were the same people!
We can see by your post that you claimed that the two were the same when they weren't as shown here:

That wasn't really the case. What's the use of the warships staying at home rotting? The bulk of the armada of warships of the Dutch Empire(Actually it was the Dutch Republic at the time fixed it for you)was already on location to stand guard over the colonies and to fight against other competing colonists to gain territories. The Dutch fought decades-long battle with the Portuguese in an effort to capture Malacca before finally succeeding.
But if you agree in your post here that the company does not equate to the Dutch Republic, then we can move on to the next step to clarify that while the rulling class has significant stakes in the company, the VOC does not at any point of time in history represents the totality of Dutch millitary and financial might.

You kept on talking about the limiting factor of financing a battle. The British East India Company was able to finance a private army of 280,000 (Indian soldiers and a smaller number of British soldiers) in India, about twice that of the British Army!
So what ? It was not the Dutch Republic, it was not the VOC and it was certainly not VOC money that paid for the army. The British East India Company is completely irrelevant to this discussion and a red herring at best.

And why do you always pull up the number of soldiers in a battle? The war between the Ming Dynasty forces and Manchus' was known to involve 500,000 soldiers on one side alone.
Because it shows the number of resources that one side had pitted in that battle. For all intents and purpose the numbers that were committed to Zeelandia was a bare fraction of what the Dutch Republic had at the time.
It was not a battle of survival for the Dutch Republic at the time nor was it a battle of national importance for it.
Compare that to the Russo-Japanese war that was the gist of the subject at the time which was a war short of total conflict and we can see why historians mark that as the defining stage which an Asian nation was able to beat a Western power in a modern conflict whereby the entire resource of a nation was directed towards war efforts.

You don't need to employ 100,000 soldiers to capture a tiny Taiwan island defended by a small number of Ming loyalists.
With the political will from the monarch and ruling class, the Dutch East India Company (among the wealthiest of East India Companies, if not the wealthiest) certainly had the resources to build up the necessary matching number of soldiers and ships (no need the big numbers as mentioned above) to try to recapture Taiwan Island from the Ming loyalists had they thought they had a reasonable chance of success.
You can keep saying that, but the simple fact remain that the VOC did not did so is a fact and this in light of greater conflicts that the Dutch Republic fought. And an equal claim can be made that the did not have the resources at the time to make a comeback even if the chances were good.
 
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