JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread


i.e.

Senior Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

You missed something, again, does the Europeans want to sell those sexy things to China and Pakistan?
Not to China, but to Turkey! a time honored nato member and aspiring member of the EU!
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Not to China, but to Turkey! a time honored nato member and aspiring member of the EU!
But the trial and test of EJ200 engines on JF-17 needed to be tested in China. Pakistan K-8 is using US honeywell engine with testing and intergratuon trial carried out in China.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Just in mind of any export efforts, are there any latest news about the (possible) purchase by the Azerbaijan AF ??

Has it been ever confirmed ?

Deino
 

Qasim57

New Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

No confirmation yet. Russian engine sales may have something to do with it - Russia has even publically made some noise about blocking RD-93(JF-17's engine) sales to China to prevent the aircraft from competing with Russian sales(they'd rather sell from the SU-27/MiG-29 family, rather than enable competing JF-17 sales with RD-93).

From another forum, about why China hasn't inducted the JF(also relates to the question of JF-17 sales to other countries:
I think China's engine problems with Russia have alot to do with it. The PLAAF officially cleared JF-17's design as meeting their requirements a little while back, and they have continued test-flying test-variants with the WS-13A engine they're developing for the aircraft. The continuing test-flights, despite Pakistan already inducting the aircraft, would logically suggest Chinese interest. But I doubt if they'll go for JF-17s with Russian RD-93 engines, given the headaches Russia has been giving them over the engines.

Russia knows China's own engine development projects are coming along nicely but they've still got China in their control for a little more time, China was really hoping they wouldn't have to order more AL-31s for their J-10s but problems producing WS-10s in sufficient numbers neccessitated another Russian deal. And the comments from all sides have been pretty public, Russians accusing Chinese of stealing and pushing prices up, etc.

China has large numbers of J-6, J-7s to replace, if it wants to maintain the size of it's airforce(which they clearly do, they're trying to compete with the USAF which's combat aircraft fleet numbers in the thousands not the hundreds), the JF-17(which, if you keep up with Chinese sources, is rumoured likely to have the J-9 designation in PLAAF service) would very likely be inducted. But not with Russian engines, senior officials from Russia's aeronautics industry already went public about how Russia should block RD-93(JF-17's engine) sales to China in order to prevent competition from the JF-17 in many markets later on. China obviously can't have it's fleet be at the mercy of Russia, especially the J-9/FC-1 fleet which would likely be a large fleet, given the J-6, J-7 fleet it would replace is very large.

China has already stopped developing the J-7, the JL-9 is likely to be the most advanced MiG-21 modification we'll ever see. So unless China goes all-out and spends alot more money putting J-10s on their bases bordering Mongolia, JF-17s would very likely be a nice inexpensive backup option for places China doesn't need J-10, -11s, or J-20s for. The JF-17 supports the same combat suite/AAMs/Laser-guided Bombs as the J-10B/J-11 like the latest SD-10B, PL-5E, and is a pretty modern aircraft. Comparatively lesser range means it's suited for defensive roles rather than deep-strike.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

No confirmation yet. Russian engine sales may have something to do with it - Russia has even publically made some noise about blocking RD-93(JF-17's engine) sales to China to prevent the aircraft from competing with Russian sales(they'd rather sell from the SU-27/MiG-29 family, rather than enable competing JF-17 sales with RD-93).

From another forum, about why China hasn't inducted the JF(also relates to the question of JF-17 sales to other countries:
No... J-10 is also using russian engines and Chinese has no problem inducting it. Why do you think there will be a problem inducting FC-1 into service with RD-93? Russian is happy to sell more engines to China for J-10. This can be say about FC-1 too. J-10 is also clear for export which means engine re-export shall not be a problem. The problem is , PLAAF do not deem FC-1 in their future plan. J-10 is a bigger and longer leg plane. Point balnk defence plane is already out of China future air defence plan. Remember China is a HUGE country. It need longer leg plane to execute more flexible plan. FC-1 can hardly fit in this.

The advance canard design gives J-10 the edge over FC-1. Price is not problem with PLAAF. They are loaded with cash now. If they want all J-7 to replace by J-10, by no means. USually domestic produce fighter jet is very cheap compare to export prices. I would not be surprised one J-10 local price is only USD 15 million dollars. That is not hard for PLAAF to replace all J-7 with J-10.

Slow sales of China fighter jet to other foreign customers beside Pakistan may due to AVIC filling large number of order from domestic deal. There is no rush to get foreign deal. Those small foreign countries may even had a hard time convincing AVIC for soft loan and cheaper price which hamper the progress of potential deal since they have a very limited budget for their AF.
 
Last edited:

Qasim57

New Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

That might be the case. Russia did play harder on the latest deal for AL-31 engines, raised prices up, Ukraine which is only a sub-contractor, also suggested guarantees be put in place so the engines are for use and not for "copying", and stuff like that. China has come very far with it's own engines, and Russia would want to milk as much $$$ from engine sales as it can, before China doesn't need Russia for anything anymore.

The RD-93 deal also eventually did go through with the Russians as well, but people like Mikhail Pogosyan who are pretty senior in Russia's aeronautics industry, did recommend banning the deal, he said the JF-17's performance is "extremely close" to the MiG-29 but at a much cheaper cost. While allowing RD-93 sales to Pakistan are alright, allowing sales to countries that would have otherwise considered buying Russian jets(if JF-17 wasn't available), might not be alright to the Russians.
---
Edit: Here's the "extremely close" JF-17 link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

Lion

Senior Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

That might be the case. Russia did play harder on the latest deal for AL-31 engines, raised prices up, Ukraine which is only a sub-contractor, also suggested guarantees be put in place so the engines are for use and not for "copying", and stuff like that. China has come very far with it's own engines, and Russia would want to milk as much $$$ from engine sales as it can, before China doesn't need Russia for anything anymore.

The RD-93 deal also eventually did go through with the Russians as well, but people like Mikhail Pogosyan who are pretty senior in Russia's aeronautics industry, did recommend banning the deal, he said the JF-17's performance is "extremely close" to the MiG-29 but at a much cheaper cost. While allowing RD-93 sales to Pakistan are alright, allowing sales to countries that would have otherwise considered buying Russian jets(if JF-17 wasn't available), might not be alright to the Russians.
---
Edit: Here's the "extremely close" JF-17 link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
I think is the other way round. Russia know WS-10 has already tested on J-10B, there are happy to sell more AL-31FN at reasonable price and they even agreed full documentation and support for China sales which is never heard before in previous deal. This show Russian is desperate to keep China deal.

China is not like India. If you try to milk her, she will ignore you and forget about the deal. IL-76 transport plane is a good example. Of course with recent high inflation, a reasonable price rise is understandable for AL-31FN engine deal.

As for Mikhail Pogosyan , is he bigger than Putin in Russia? In Russia , words of CEO of Sukhoi or MIg counts for zero. What Putin agreed/say is important. Putin is pro-China. He snub India and approve RD-93 engine deal for re export to Pakistan personally, ignore call of RD-93 engine deals to be ban. Putin call the shot. Obvious, security of Russia and strong support from China is far more important than those small small MIg-29 deal which Russia can afford to lose. Klimov so far has no call to ban their engine sales to China and re export to other countries.
 
Last edited:

Qasim57

New Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

I think is the other way round. Russia know WS-10 has already tested on J-10B, there are happy to sell more AL-31FN at reasonable price and they even agreed full documentation and support for China sales which is never heard before in previous deal. This show Russian is desperate to keep China deal.

China is not like India. If you try to milk her, she will ignore you and forget about the deal. IL-76 transport plane is a good example. Of course with recent high inflation, a reasonable price rise is understandable for AL-31FN engine deal.

As for Mikhail Pogosyan , is he bigger than Putin in Russia? In Russia , words of CEO of Sukhoi or MIg counts for zero. What Putin agreed/say is important. Putin is pro-China. He snub India and approve RD-93 engine deal for re export to Pakistan personally, ignore call of RD-93 engine deals to be ban. Putin call the shot. Obvious, security of Russia and strong support from China is far more important than those small small MIg-29 deal which Russia can afford to lose. Klimov so far has no call to ban their engine sales to China and re export to other countries.
I was not aware of the full documentation, that is interesting. I was judging from news sources like these(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) that China was apparently "miffed" at some clauses of the deal(or so the media claims). Inflation is also a factor in raising prices, And China really keeps Russia in it's proper place. The Russians do have manipulative practices in many of their deals with everyone(selling used aircraft to Algeria after receiving payment for new hoping they won't notice, hooking Indians on by selling low-priced Kiev-class(older class) carrier then raising the price 4x, doubling the prices of "MKI" Indians are so proud of, etc).

The main question over here is, would Russia really allow RD-93 sales to countries where the JF-17 would compete with Russian aircraft in the local market? According to senior officials like Mikhael Pogosyan, it would be in Russia's interest to prevent JF-17. He has said it's performance is "extremely close" to MiG-29, but price is comparatively less. Given how JF-17 is compatible with the same weapons suite the J-10 has, and weapons like SD-10B can actually fire before getting in range of Russia's R-77 so it is deadlier(-B variant is said to have a range of 100+ km, R-77 does not - also, China is spending alot more in this, and other areas), and can compete with Russia in many of the same markets Russia historically sells to.

Rightnow, Russia does have leverage over the aircraft's sales due to the engines. Many countries have expressed some degree of interest about the JF-17, an Indonesian Minister talked about this aircraft's performance capability roughly at par with older F-16s, even the Turkish Prime Minister mentioned the JF-17(Turkey is considering joining the F/A-50 Korean-American project, Korea's arrangement with USA enforces that F/A-50's performance will not exceed Korea's KF-16s). Pakistani AF officials have talked about up to 8 countries having expressed interest in the aircraft, some even sending their pilots to test-fly the aircraft.

I believe the RD-93 engine would be a problem in some of those sales.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

I was not aware of the full documentation, that is interesting. I was judging from news sources like these(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) that China was apparently "miffed" at some clauses of the deal(or so the media claims). Inflation is also a factor in raising prices, And China really keeps Russia in it's proper place. The Russians do have manipulative practices in many of their deals with everyone(selling used aircraft to Algeria after receiving payment for new hoping they won't notice, hooking Indians on by selling low-priced Kiev-class(older class) carrier then raising the price 4x, doubling the prices of "MKI" Indians are so proud of, etc).

The main question over here is, would Russia really allow RD-93 sales to countries where the JF-17 would compete with Russian aircraft in the local market? According to senior officials like Mikhael Pogosyan, it would be in Russia's interest to prevent JF-17. He has said it's performance is "extremely close" to MiG-29, but price is comparatively less. Given how JF-17 is compatible with the same weapons suite the J-10 has, and weapons like SD-10B can actually fire before getting in range of Russia's R-77 so it is deadlier(-B variant is said to have a range of 100+ km, R-77 does not - also, China is spending alot more in this, and other areas), and can compete with Russia in many of the same markets Russia historically sells to.

Rightnow, Russia does have leverage over the aircraft's sales due to the engines. Many countries have expressed some degree of interest about the JF-17, an Indonesian Minister talked about this aircraft's performance capability roughly at par with older F-16s, even the Turkish Prime Minister mentioned the JF-17(Turkey is considering joining the F/A-50 Korean-American project, Korea's arrangement with USA enforces that F/A-50's performance will not exceed Korea's KF-16s). Pakistani AF officials have talked about up to 8 countries having expressed interest in the aircraft, some even sending their pilots to test-fly the aircraft.

I believe the RD-93 engine would be a problem in some of those sales.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

I was not aware of the full documentation, that is interesting. I was judging from news sources like these(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) that China was apparently "miffed" at some clauses of the deal(or so the media claims). Inflation is also a factor in raising prices, And China really keeps Russia in it's proper place. The Russians do have manipulative practices in many of their deals with everyone(selling used aircraft to Algeria after receiving payment for new hoping they won't notice, hooking Indians on by selling low-priced Kiev-class(older class) carrier then raising the price 4x, doubling the prices of "MKI" Indians are so proud of, etc).

The main question over here is, would Russia really allow RD-93 sales to countries where the JF-17 would compete with Russian aircraft in the local market? According to senior officials like Mikhael Pogosyan, it would be in Russia's interest to prevent JF-17. He has said it's performance is "extremely close" to MiG-29, but price is comparatively less. Given how JF-17 is compatible with the same weapons suite the J-10 has, and weapons like SD-10B can actually fire before getting in range of Russia's R-77 so it is deadlier(-B variant is said to have a range of 100+ km, R-77 does not - also, China is spending alot more in this, and other areas), and can compete with Russia in many of the same markets Russia historically sells to.

Rightnow, Russia does have leverage over the aircraft's sales due to the engines. Many countries have expressed some degree of interest about the JF-17, an Indonesian Minister talked about this aircraft's performance capability roughly at par with older F-16s, even the Turkish Prime Minister mentioned the JF-17(Turkey is considering joining the F/A-50 Korean-American project, Korea's arrangement with USA enforces that F/A-50's performance will not exceed Korea's KF-16s). Pakistani AF officials have talked about up to 8 countries having expressed interest in the aircraft, some even sending their pilots to test-fly the aircraft.

I believe the RD-93 engine would be a problem in some of those sales.
DOn't worry my friend...

Chinese procurement policy is always two pronged ever since 90s.
at least two sources for each critical item.

in this case RD-93 to ensure JF-17's schedule.
and WS-13B to ensure RD-93 don't get critically single sourced.

next time this year PAF prob will start to induct WS-13B powered JF-17s.
 

Top