JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Brumby]

Which posts have suggested that we know that a decision has been made?

From a quick skim over the last few pages, I can't see anyone claiming to know which AESA JF-17 Block III will go with.

Siege did post a picture showing a JF-17 testing a radar that looks like LKF601E yes, but that tells us nothing about which radar the PAF has actually committed to for Block III, and as I wrote before, we had confirmation in November 2018 that JF-17 had already been at least installed with LKF601E as well.

As I said before I was basing on those two post which I guess are merely speculations.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jf-17-fc-1-fighter-aircraft-thread.t5634/page-478#post-582876

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jf-17-fc-1-fighter-aircraft-thread.t5634/page-478#post-582893

 

[Brumby]

Yeah and how does this match with your accusation of china infringing on pakistan' sovereignty?

that was in response to the comment that Pakistan is spending China's money and that Pakistan needs to conform to China's wishes. Are you going to address my original question? If mot don't waste my time by engaging in frivolous comments.

I did by simply pointing out that what china could do in the scenario is way less coercive than what the typical norms of dealing with western/nato military business are. 'Dragging' the US into this is absolutely fine since it points out your double standard in observing china's normal behavior. The turkey's f-35 ousting is actually a perfect mirroring of the imaginary scenario that we're discussing (but again with more coercive reaction from the US), yet I doubt you will apply the same accusation you have done to china to the americans.

Anyway, I presented my arguments, what about yours?? What make you think that merely backing away from a clearly compromised program is infringing someone else' sovereignty? Heck, in this scenario china won't even start the program with pakistan from the beginning since all the details regarding the techs acquisition must have been put in the contract (again compare and contrast with turkey's ousting in a program that has been signed and worked on for decades). No paper will be signed, no nothing. Merits of the argument you said? Here it goes: how's refusing to sign a paper and start a program from the beginning is 'infringing pakistan' sovereignty and making them to be china's vassal‘???? The more I breakdown your arguments the more ridiculous it sounds, doesn't it?

non sequitur

 

[Blitzo]

As I said before I was basing on those two post which I guess are merely speculations.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jf-17-fc-1-fighter-aircraft-thread.t5634/page-478#post-582876

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jf-17-fc-1-fighter-aircraft-thread.t5634/page-478#post-582893

But none of those posts you linked suggested that the radars depicted were the radar that the PAF had chosen?


I feel like I don't need to say this, but I'll do so just to make it clear --- the pictures and the commentary show that the radar is being tested aboard a JF-17 (again, which we've known for a while now). But I don't think any of the posts are speculating that they believe radar depicted is the one that the PAF has chosen for JF-17 block III?



That is to say -- there was no speculation suggesting that the PAF had chosen LKF601E in any of those posts to begin with.

 

[Brumby]

But none of those posts you linked suggested that the radars depicted were the radar that the PAF had chosen?


I feel like I don't need to say this, but I'll do so just to make it clear --- the pictures and the commentary show that the radar is being tested aboard a JF-17 (again, which we've known for a while now). But I don't think any of the posts are speculating that they believe radar depicted is the one that the PAF has chosen for JF-17 block III?



That is to say -- there was no speculation suggesting that the PAF had chosen LKF601E in any of those posts to begin with.

Just answer this question. On the day the news surfaced about Block 3, there were two immediate posts associated with the story. Are you saying the two posters had nothing better to do?

 

[ougoah]

Derailment of thread in full progress. Can we please now get over the off topic discussions on AZM and TFX because all that's worth saying has been said and both are barely off the paper. By the time the technology for those projects are decided, the geopolitical landscape will have changed.

 

[ougoah]

After these photos are out, it would appear the conservative speculators were correct in that there is no "stealthified" frame. I mean what would be the bloody point? You're spending many millions more just to hang weapons on the wings? And where would AZM or J-35 or TFX factor in? A dedicated "hi" VLO fighter? lol

So the main improvements are indeed likely to be the radar and weapons. No IRST, larger wings, more hardpoints etc for visible improvements.

 

[Blitzo]

Just answer this question. On the day the news surfaced about Block 3, there were two immediate posts associated with the story. Are you saying the two posters had nothing better to do?

Oh I see, are you suggesting that because the posts were made on the same day that Siege and By78 were suggesting that their pictures of the AESA were related to Block III, or that the PAF had chosen it for Block III?

They made their posts before the new pictures of Block III were released, and if you actually look at the chronology of the posts on page 477 and 478, you will see that those posts were all talking about the new pictures of the dual seat JF-17B that were released as well as the prospect of JF-17 Block II possibly getting an AESA upgrade.
The new pics of the JF-17 Block III were only posted on page 479.

Unfortunately I think you may have gotten your chronology mixed up, because at that point in the thread the pictures of JF-17 Block III weren't even posted yet. I can see how you might have interpreted those posts as being associated with JF-17 Block III, but they were posted before the new pics emerged in the last 24 hours, and if you read the actual sequence of the posts made you would've seen that they were not made in context of Block III specific discussion either.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

The conversation was about Pakistan spending China's money - not about America. If you have facts that Pakistan is not living up to its terms then lay it out All joint venture agreements have stated responsibilities, obligations and what constitute infringements of agreed terms.

I forgot how tiresome dealing with your pedantry is; thank you for reminding me, really. I didn't claim that Pakistan is not living up to the terms of the deals it signed with China, I'm sure Pakistan is living up to them. What I do claim is that those terms themselves were drafted when China was in a weaker position relative to the position it's in now, and any new deals should have terms barring Pakistan from introducing third-party suppliers into Project Azm. You know, just like the deals America has with its "allies" about introducing outside parties like Russia or China into the F-35 program. America even prohibits them from purchasing Russian equipment that has nothing to do with what America supplies - a provision Turkey ironically ran afoul of by purchasing the S-400. Even I don't want China to go as far as prohibiting Pakistan from buying systems from Turkey or America or whomever else, just no mixing with Chinese systems.

 

[Mohsin77]

What I do claim is that those terms themselves were drafted when China was in a weaker position relative to the position it's in now, and any new deals should have terms barring Pakistan from introducing third-party suppliers into Project Azm.

China's "weaker position" in the past has ZERO bearing on this issue. Do you really think that if China had any concern with the PAF integrating the Turkish pod on the Thunder, the PAF would have told China to f*** off and done it anyway? Really?

The fact that the Turkish pod is being marketed as an option for a Chinese platform (which is for sale internationally) shows that relations between China and Turkey are improving. They are both working together here, by definition. Things like this don't happen without a LOT of meetings at high levels, between all parties involved. This is the first step towards further military cooperation, which I expect will only get tighter.

Read the news on rising relations between China and Turkey, in the economic and military sphere:

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And as I said before already, Turkey has already pulled back on its criticism of the Uighur issue as well. This stuff isn't happening randomly. There is clearly a pattern and a strategy behind it, showing a convergence.

 

[SinoSoldier]

I forgot how tiresome dealing with your pedantry is; thank you for reminding me, really. I didn't claim that Pakistan is not living up to the terms of the deals it signed with China, I'm sure Pakistan is living up to them. What I do claim is that those terms themselves were drafted when China was in a weaker position relative to the position it's in now, and any new deals should have terms barring Pakistan from introducing third-party suppliers into Project Azm. You know, just like the deals America has with its "allies" about introducing outside parties like Russia or China into the F-35 program. America even prohibits them from purchasing Russian equipment that has nothing to do with what America supplies - a provision Turkey ironically ran afoul of by purchasing the S-400. Even I don't want China to go as far as prohibiting Pakistan from buying systems from Turkey or America or whomever else, just no mixing with Chinese systems.

To be fair China's export market, in terms of military equipment, is too small for them to enact such a rule. It'll kill off any prospects of them exporting high-end complex platforms such as the J-10CE or Block III. Potential customers will go straight to either Russian or Western equipment just to avoid this logistical headache.