JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

A simple analogy would be---as it exists in the deployed form---and it is a brand new fighter aircraft---thus it has to be compared against all other fighter aircraft.

When Hyundai car company came to the U S in the late 80's---it was not the best car---but it still got compared to the Toyotas---Hondas---Nissans---VW's and american cars.

Now look where it is---beating Honda and Toyota in quality for least problems---and safety as well in crash test.

JF17 is going to grow thru a natural progression---. This is all Paf has to fight with--then---by default---this aircraft will be developed to the max---in the current form---and then the JF17 2.0 version.

It will ultimately go back to the size of its original design---which was about 20---25% larger than its current size.

Would this happen with BLK3 or later---it is not known.

 

[Iron Man]

When Hyundai car company came to the U S in the late 80's---it was not the best car---but it still got compared to the Toyotas---Hondas---Nissans---VW's and american cars.

Now look where it is---beating Honda and Toyota in quality for least problems---and safety as well in crash test.

Well Hyundai actually WAS competing against all of those brands, whereas the JF-17 is not only not competing against those large fighters (no potential PAF adversary in the region has either of these fighters), it is not even in the same class as those fighters. Similarly, a Hyundai compact would not be competing directly against a Toyota SUV for sales, it would be competing against a Toyota compact or a VW compact.

 

[tphuang]

Hi,

A simple analogy would be---as it exists in the deployed form---and it is a brand new fighter aircraft---thus it has to be compared against all other fighter aircraft.

When Hyundai car company came to the U S in the late 80's---it was not the best car---but it still got compared to the Toyotas---Hondas---Nissans---VW's and american cars.

Now look where it is---beating Honda and Toyota in quality for least problems---and safety as well in crash test.

JF17 is going to grow thru a natural progression---. This is all Paf has to fight with--then---by default---this aircraft will be developed to the max---in the current form---and then the JF17 2.0 version.

It will ultimately go back to the size of its original design---which was about 20---25% larger than its current size.

Would this happen with BLK3 or later---it is not known.

that's a different aircraft. They can just procure J-10 if that's the case.

 

[thunderchief]

The reason I keep making references to tanks vs IFV's is that this comparison is quite analogous to comparisons of heavyweight vs lightweight fighters. If you went on a full point-by-point, armor thickness vs armor thickness, gun vs gun comparison, you would wonder why in the hell any nation even produces IFVs in the first place.

Well, your analogy is not really ... analogous

IFV's carry infantry - beside crew they have room for several infantry soldiers that could and would dismount and fight on their own. Tanks do not carry passengers (except Israeli Merkava ) so they could not fulfill the role of IFV .

On the other hand, heavy fighters could do everything that light fighters do, and some more. Only real advantage of light fighters is price . In case of JF-17, nobody realistically expect from them to go one on one against larger and more capable fighters. But, they could be a part of defensive network, vectored by AEW radars (both on ground and on other aircraft) .

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

At first it created an inexpensive segment of its own---cars that were 3---4--5 thousand cheaper in price than similar other cars---.
Once it got its foothold on the market---it competes in all segments---from the bottom of the barrel to the high end as well.
Same would be the case with the JF17. It suffered a massive setback due to the non availability of French EW suite---and bad planning with no dual seater at the time of inception.

The issue over here is that how far does the Paf want to push this aircraft---. It is the same size as the Gripen---if Gripen can do it---the JF17 can as well.

At the time of battle---there is no stopping one type of aircraft going against the other. Modern technology is a great equalizer of strength---so a smaller aircraft with equally deadly weapons will have as much of a chance of surviving and coming out ahead as any other aircraft of similar category---but regardless of weight class.

 

[MastanKhan]

@thunderchief
What do you mean by saying the JF17 will not up against larger aircraft---off course it will---.

That is what it is designed to fight---to go one on one---just wait and see to what is coming in the next couple of years.

@tphuang Paf does not like the J10---supposedly the army ie---Gen Musharraf wanted to force this aircraft over the air force and made the deal for 36 of them---but the Paf---just out of spite---would not get this aircraft---unless it is desperate to---.

They would rather have the JF17 go thru the change---or basically be designed to the original size that it was planned for---.

 

[Deino]

...
@tphuang Paf does not like the J10---supposedly the army ie---Gen Musharraf wanted to force this aircraft over the air force and made the deal for 36 of them---but the Paf---just out of spite---would not get this aircraft---unless it is desperate to---.

They would rather have the JF17 go thru the change---or basically be designed to the original size that it was planned for---.

But honestly, then it is either stubborn or simply unrealistic. Pakistn can never found this development into a JF-17XL on its own and CAC will never do with own resources only to create a type that matches the J-10. Even more i am not sure what benefits such a type should bring in contrast to the already available J-10?

Deino

 

[rabirizvi]

I believe (totally an assumption on my part) now that china has produced J-31, PAF will be more interested in her than J-10. Till the time J-31 is available, PAF will make do with F-16s

 

[plawolf]

But honestly, then it is either stubborn or simply unrealistic. Pakistn can never found this development into a JF-17XL on its own and CAC will never do with own resources only to create a type that matches the J-10. Even more i am not sure what benefits such a type should bring in contrast to the already available J-10?

Deino

Probably more for local industrial reasons rather than performance.

Buying J10s won't growth Pakistan aviation industry skills and capability because China is almost certain to reject 100% ToT for the type. Developing the JF17 into a J10 capabilities class fighter, OTOH, would, since Pakistan will have 100% ToT for that project.

Buying J10s would give the PAF a big immediate capability boost, whereas further developing the JF17 would bring long term benefits to the Pakistan aviation industry.

However, development in the JF17 is almost certainly not going to result in a J10 weight class version. It would make no sense to modify the fighter so much, would be easier to start with a clean sheet design if the goal is for such a fighter, just like for all its development, the Gripen NG is still not in the same weight class as the Typhoon or Rafale and never will be.

Further developing the JF17 is a given, but a J10 class fighter it will never be.

 

[Blackstone]

But honestly, then it is either stubborn or simply unrealistic. Pakistn can never found this development into a JF-17XL on its own and CAC will never do with own resources only to create a type that matches the J-10. Even more i am not sure what benefits such a type should bring in contrast to the already available J-10?

Deino

Isn't the JL-15 competition for 2-seat JF-17s?