Japan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.


Skywatcher

Captain
They will increase the sub force to 24 if they build the two more planned Taigei class.

I believe the Soryu and Taigei boats are about the best AIP SS boats built. Very good long range. Good speed submersed. Very stealthy. Very good weApron load out.
Begging your pardon, but aren't the Taigei boats technically SSKs since as far as I know, they use only lithium ion batteries but not AIP?
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Begging your pardon, but aren't the Taigei boats technically SSKs since as far as I know, they use only lithium ion batteries but not AIP?
I believe SS just stands for a general clasification of Submersible Ship (SS) and has nothing to do whether it is equipped with AIP or not.
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I believe SS just stands for a general clasification of Submersible Ship (SS) and has nothing to do whether it is equipped with AIP or not.

@Skywatcher

That is correct, but since we are on it, even with the advanced snorkeling, and advanced sonar operation at snorkel depth...Samurai, can you give us some idea of why the last two Soryu, and these new Taigie subs appear to have abandoned AIP?

It seems that, at least IMHO, that AIP is less risky, and at least that if necessary, having these new systems compliment it when needed would have been a better course. That is unless they were having problems with their particular AIP implementation.

The explanation I found was this:

Lithium-ion batteries have almost double the electric storage capacity of traditional lead-acid batteries, and by not only replacing them in the existing battery storage areas but adding to the already large battery capacity by also filling the huge space (several hundred tons displacement) inside the hull previously occupied by the AIP Stirling engines and their fuel tanks with these new batteries, the amount of (more powerful) batteries carried overall is massive. This has improved the underwater endurance significantly and is felt will be an advantage over the slow recharge capability of the AIP system. In any event, JMSDF believes that lithium-ion is the way forward and intends to 'trial' this new system and compare it to the previous AIP system for operational effectiveness.

So, in effect it seams like a trial. They must be happy with it thus far to have four subs committed to it...and the slow change rate of the Sterling AIP must have been intolerable to the JMSDF.

But with the massive Lithium-ion storage, I wonder how long the snorkeling re-charge takes when needed. It would be nice to see a comparison of recharge time and underwater endurance for both of the two equipment implementations.[/I][/I]
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
As it is this class looks VERY good! How many do they intend to build? Hopefully more than two. They could replace a couple of classes of older frigates and build 12-15 of them.
Hey, Jeff, nice to see you.

Last I heard they're
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, replacing the Abukuma, Asagiri and Hatsuyuki-classes. Would probably lead to a few extra ships in service eventually, as most of the ships in the older classes have been retired now.
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Hey, Jeff, nice to see you.

Last I heard they're
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, replacing the Abukuma, Asagiri and Hatsuyuki-classes. Would probably lead to a few extra ships in service eventually, as most of the ships in the older classes have been retired now.
Thanks, Mr T.

This is my thinking as well. If they ended up with 30 boats or more, and all of them were Soryu

If they ended up with a total of 30, or more boats, and all of them were Soryu or Taigie, then the JMSDF would be in a very good position as far as their overall SS force.

I believe the Japanese are very capable of building nuclear attack, or missile boats as well. I would love to see them build a force of 8-12 SSNs and 6-8 SSGNs as well.
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
We shall see if the stealth is well maintained after complete outfitting. If they use a good stealthy cupola for the main gun and hide the ECM and various other weapons and sensors either inside or below the radar line behind the stealthy solid wall section acting as safety rails, they should be able to,

The US Independebce class Fast Frigates are similarly stealthy, as are the Zumwalts which are large vessels which sadly were cut from 28 vessels to 3.

As it is this class looks VERY good! How many do they intend to build? Hopefully more than two. They could replace a couple of classes of older frigates and build 12-15 of them.

If I recall correctly, the current midterm plan calls for the procurement of 8 of them. The Long Term Defense Outline calls for eventually 20 of them.
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
They are planning two upgrades to fully facilitate the F-35B integration.

The first will add structural strengthening, exhaust treatment to the landing anfd take-off areas of the dec and some hanger enhancement.

Originally the second would add enhancement to the forward deck and other final enhancements. Originally this was to be a ski-jump, but with the US Navy developing operations without any to the two aircraft centric LHAs and two Wasp class LKDs, perhaps the JMSDF will operate similarly.

Whatever the case, it will be good to see the Izumos operational with. 12-14 F-35Bs on their decks.

You have a fantastic model collection and an enjoyable fleet groups to look at so it sort of makes one want it to be true that the JMoD was originally intending to have a ski-jump on them but I don't think there has ever been official statment on that or even annonymous leak of MoD thinking. The plastic model company, manga Ibuki, went on that assumption on their own I think.

Yeah, I think the flat square deck extension should help interoperability with US forces. The first F-35Bs to literally give a test run off the two modified Izumo-class ships will US, not Japanese. So the same deck shape should make cross decking easier. Although US F-35Bs have already landed and taken off from the UK's Queen Elizabeth but maybe that took a little extra training that the US may not want to have the whole US F-35B fleet to include in their training. But it'll still be needed if they want to cross deck off of Australian LHDs in the future. The plain square shape on the modified Izumo ships may also just be less expensive than adding a slope to it.

With that said, I have received to mod warnings. Both were bull shit "infringement" reasons, with the second one coming with the warning that the next "infringment" on these Pro-CCP forums would result in permanant ban. So I have no intetest in contributing more to these boards with only saving my potentially last post on the boards for when it would matter much. Replying to you is sufficiently worthy enough. Definately see no point in contributing while at the same time becoming harmonized by self-censoring myself. What's the point then other then to make myself a tool?

Bring on the troll inscribed Pro-CCP ban stick!
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
@Skywatcher

That is correct, but since we are on it, even with the advanced snorkeling, and advanced sonar operation at snorkel depth...Samurai, can you give us some idea of why the last two Soryu, and these new Taigie subs appear to have abandoned AIP?

It seems that, at least IMHO, that AIP is less risky, and at least that if necessary, having these new systems compliment it when needed would have been a better course. That is unless they were having problems with their particular AIP implementation.

The explanation I found was this:

Lithium-ion batteries have almost double the electric storage capacity of traditional lead-acid batteries, and by not only replacing them in the existing battery storage areas but adding to the already large battery capacity by also filling the huge space (several hundred tons displacement) inside the hull previously occupied by the AIP Stirling engines and their fuel tanks with these new batteries, the amount of (more powerful) batteries carried overall is massive. This has improved the underwater endurance significantly and is felt will be an advantage over the slow recharge capability of the AIP system. In any event, JMSDF believes that lithium-ion is the way forward and intends to 'trial' this new system and compare it to the previous AIP system for operational effectiveness.

So, in effect it seams like a trial. They must be happy with it thus far to have four subs committed to it...and the slow change rate of the Sterling AIP must have been intolerable to the JMSDF.

But with the massive Lithium-ion storage, I wonder how long the snorkeling re-charge takes when needed. It would be nice to see a comparison of recharge time and underwater endurance for both of the two equipment implementations.[/I][/I]
Hi Jeff-san
Nice to hear from you again.
To my understanding the two Stirling engines were too big that had not enough power output to justify it's size.
Although you need to snorkel to recharge Li-Ion batteries, it only requires one-two hours not the the long twelve+ hours required to recharge conventional lead acid batteries which I believe was more preferable against low power output. It's a calculated risk JMSDF was willing to accept.
In the future JMSDF may swap the Li-Ion batteries for Li solid state batteries once they are available.
I also believe the nex generation may adopt "Power Paste" hydrogen storage/fuel cell based AIP or even Lattice Confined Nuclear Fusion reaction engine once developed. (The German "Powe Paste" system has already made proof of concept with a working proto-type by the original inventors.)
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Well, 2 hours vs 12+ hours is very significant, and allows the skipper much more vex ability in scheduling his recharge, particularly with the snorkeling improvements and sonar improvements.

I believe that the solid state, the hydrogen fuel cell based AIP or theLattice confined nuclear reactor would all be great improvements and in the JMSDFs best interest.

Thanks back to you my friend and may God in Heaven continue to bless ou and yours.
 

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