J-20... The New Generation Fighter II
- Thread starter Asymptote
- Start date
- Status
Quickie
Colonel
Re: China's Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle (e.g. TVC) technology
So? Who said that was a Chinese engine? Unless they specifically said "this is the ws10 engine" then its probably not Chinese.
Having said that, if you look at the J-20s nozzle, it looks a lot like that TVC image and less like the WS-10
So? Who said that was a Chinese engine? Unless they specifically said "this is the ws10 engine" then its probably not Chinese.
Having said that, if you look at the J-20s nozzle, it looks a lot like that TVC image and less like the WS-10
Martian
Senior Member
China's TVC technology is present in WS-10A, WS-10B, and WS-10G
"WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,000 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.[6] The WS-10A design consists of a 7-stage high pressure compressor, short annular combustor with air blast atomizer and air film cooling blade. It is the first production turbofan from China to feature single crystal nickel-based turbine blades, which allow higher intake temperatures and greater engine thrust. WS-10A has also been equipped with a FADEC (full authority digital engine control) system. An asymmetric thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle, similar to the TVC nozzle of the Russian AL-31F-TVN engine, has also been reported undergoing testing.
On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[7] The Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[8]
Derivatives of the WS-10 are under development, such as a high-bypass turbofan variant for propelling large transport aircraft and marine gas turbine variant for propelling ships.
A thrust-vectoring variant with higher thrust (132 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)), called the WS-10B, is also in testing and is ready for combat aircraft installation.
An even further upgrade with higher thrust (155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf)), designated the WS-10G, is also under testing.
Variants
* WS-10 - original design producing a thrust of 126 kilonewtons (28,000 lbf)
* WS-10A - upgraded variant producing a thrust of 132 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)
* WS-10B - upgraded thrust-vectored variant producing a thrust of 135 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)
* WS-10G - upgraded variant producing a thrust of 155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf) with Thrust Vectoring and stealthy nozzles that have jagged edges and tiles"
"WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,000 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.[6] The WS-10A design consists of a 7-stage high pressure compressor, short annular combustor with air blast atomizer and air film cooling blade. It is the first production turbofan from China to feature single crystal nickel-based turbine blades, which allow higher intake temperatures and greater engine thrust. WS-10A has also been equipped with a FADEC (full authority digital engine control) system. An asymmetric thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle, similar to the TVC nozzle of the Russian AL-31F-TVN engine, has also been reported undergoing testing.
On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[7] The Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[8]
Derivatives of the WS-10 are under development, such as a high-bypass turbofan variant for propelling large transport aircraft and marine gas turbine variant for propelling ships.
A thrust-vectoring variant with higher thrust (132 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)), called the WS-10B, is also in testing and is ready for combat aircraft installation.
An even further upgrade with higher thrust (155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf)), designated the WS-10G, is also under testing.
Variants
* WS-10 - original design producing a thrust of 126 kilonewtons (28,000 lbf)
* WS-10A - upgraded variant producing a thrust of 132 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)
* WS-10B - upgraded thrust-vectored variant producing a thrust of 135 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)
* WS-10G - upgraded variant producing a thrust of 155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf) with Thrust Vectoring and stealthy nozzles that have jagged edges and tiles"
Re: China's Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle (e.g. TVC) technology
CCTV is known for posting some crappy video clips with their news shows (espicially regarding military related subjects). What is actually said during the video segment with the supposed TVC engine -- anything implying a Chinese TVC engine?
We do know China has some level of TVC technology or development at least. Years ago a picture/video came out with Jiang ZeMin (I think it was him -- definitely a high ranking official) moving a joystick and an TVC engine nozzle moving around with it.
How hard is it to develop and produce and integrate TVC nozzles onto an engine, or a TVC engine from the ground up? Are there any specific technologies required -- from a layman's perspective all that would be a challenge is acquiring slightly more heat resistant materials and being able to integrate the nozzle into the FCS which isn't too hard if you've had experience developing a high thrust engine and FBW.
Lol, Martian I wouldn't use wikipedia as a source for any PLA equipment... regardless of how authentic or detailed they may seem (see articles for WZ-10 and the 052C's AESA radar).
We can be sure TVC is under development and will be fielded on WS-15 but this new WS-10X engine on J-20 is proving a bit of a mystery. It looks unnaturally clean and well shaped (from the nozzles at least) -- but then again the whole plane I think has exceeded expectations...
CCTV is known for posting some crappy video clips with their news shows (espicially regarding military related subjects). What is actually said during the video segment with the supposed TVC engine -- anything implying a Chinese TVC engine?
We do know China has some level of TVC technology or development at least. Years ago a picture/video came out with Jiang ZeMin (I think it was him -- definitely a high ranking official) moving a joystick and an TVC engine nozzle moving around with it.
How hard is it to develop and produce and integrate TVC nozzles onto an engine, or a TVC engine from the ground up? Are there any specific technologies required -- from a layman's perspective all that would be a challenge is acquiring slightly more heat resistant materials and being able to integrate the nozzle into the FCS which isn't too hard if you've had experience developing a high thrust engine and FBW.
Lol, Martian I wouldn't use wikipedia as a source for any PLA equipment... regardless of how authentic or detailed they may seem (see articles for WZ-10 and the 052C's AESA radar).
We can be sure TVC is under development and will be fielded on WS-15 but this new WS-10X engine on J-20 is proving a bit of a mystery. It looks unnaturally clean and well shaped (from the nozzles at least) -- but then again the whole plane I think has exceeded expectations...
Martian
Senior Member
In 2006, Jane's reported that China was developing TVC for J-10
By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent
Moscow 09 January 2006
China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources.
Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10.
However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.
In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.
The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.
By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent
Moscow 09 January 2006
China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources.
Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10.
However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.
In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.
The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
Then Gates was obviously talking himself and he answered it as well.
Touche
Although there's the possibility that he was wondering to himself what sort of secret weapon they could test during HU's visit
Last edited:
Re: In 2006, Jane's reported that China was developing TVC for J-10
Come on Martian, you know better than to quote an old JDW article -- and the engine they imply seems to be Russian in origin anyhow.
Besides, the so called Super-10 probably meant the J-10B which has a large number of other advantages over the aircraft this article talks about.
Come on Martian, you know better than to quote an old JDW article -- and the engine they imply seems to be Russian in origin anyhow.
Besides, the so called Super-10 probably meant the J-10B which has a large number of other advantages over the aircraft this article talks about.
Martian
Senior Member
In 2002, Jane's predicted development of China's stealth fighter and WS-10A TVC
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - DECEMBER 11, 2002
China launches new stealth fighter project
YIHONG CHANG JDW Correspondent
Zhuhai
The Shenyang Aircraft Company has been selected to head research and development of a new heavyweight fighter for China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), according to a senior source at the China Aviation Industry Corp I (AVIC I).
Development of the engines and weapon subsystems for the fourth-generation fighter has been under way for some time, according to the source, who revealed that a number of design concepts have already been created. Wind-tunnel tests of these are about to start, including the two configurations pictured here. They show a twin-engine aircraft sharing some design traits with Lockheed Martin's stealthy F/A-22 multirole fighter, now undergoing tests with the US Air Force, such as the internal carriage of its weapon systems. The Chinese designs retain a more conventional wing, however, and use a single vertical tail fin.
AVIC I officials told Jane's Defence Weekly that the new aircraft - tentatively dubbed the J-X and possibly to receive the service designation J-13A - could use the WS10A turbofan engine designed by the Shenyang Liming Motor Company during its development and trials process.
In development for more than a decade, the WS10-series power plant completed air trials earlier this year with an Su-27SK (NATO reporting name: 'Flanker-B') fighter. The WS10A is scheduled for introduction with the PLAAF's new J-10A fighter, which has yet to be formally unveiled.
Continuing research into advanced control techniques is expected to in time allow the air force to field WS10A-powered J-10A and J-X fighters equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzles offering improved aircraft manoeuvrability.
Chinese television has shown images of President Jiang Zemin inspecting this project. The concepts indicate that the thrust-vectoring nozzle can be deflected by up to ±15º in any direction. Perfecting thrust-vectoring flight is one of the key aviation development programmes within Beijing's current five-year plan - a cap ability tipped to "improve the J-10A's short take-off and landing performance and [enable it to] attain the manoeuvrability standard of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter", said one industry source.
An assessment of potential multi-function fire-control radar systems for the new stealth fighter is also under way, with candidates including China's indigenous Type 1473 design. According to an industry source, this has a search distance of 150km and can track up to 15 targets, attacking between six and eight of them simultaneously. The design is currently undergoing upgrade to allow for the integration of a phased-array antenna.
Another option is the Russian Zhemchung system, which could allow a future naval variant of the J-10A to deploy advanced weapons such as the Kh-31A (AS-17: 'Krypton') medium-range anti-ship missile. In addition to planning its own active and passive phased-array antenna design, China is giving consideration to Russia's Pero active antenna, and has also already received 20 980mm slotted antenna sets from Russia.
While AVIC I sources will not speculate when the new fighter might make its first test flight, a debut around the end of the decade could be expected if the project matches the development process for China's J-10A and J-8D projects. Further impetus has been placed on the new programme, however, through Zemin's encouragement that relevant weapons and technologies be acquired from Russia and Ukraine. Zemin has also committed future funding for the J-X concept's continued development.
In a related development, an authorative source within China's military industry has also confirmed to JDW that the air force's first 10 AL-31FN-engined J-10A fighters were deployed with the country's Nanjing Military Command during August 2002 for training activities. The PLAAF's first two-seat J-10B fighters will enter manufacture next year, featuring enhanced air-to-ground and maritime attack capabilities.
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - DECEMBER 11, 2002
China launches new stealth fighter project
YIHONG CHANG JDW Correspondent
Zhuhai
The Shenyang Aircraft Company has been selected to head research and development of a new heavyweight fighter for China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), according to a senior source at the China Aviation Industry Corp I (AVIC I).
Development of the engines and weapon subsystems for the fourth-generation fighter has been under way for some time, according to the source, who revealed that a number of design concepts have already been created. Wind-tunnel tests of these are about to start, including the two configurations pictured here. They show a twin-engine aircraft sharing some design traits with Lockheed Martin's stealthy F/A-22 multirole fighter, now undergoing tests with the US Air Force, such as the internal carriage of its weapon systems. The Chinese designs retain a more conventional wing, however, and use a single vertical tail fin.
AVIC I officials told Jane's Defence Weekly that the new aircraft - tentatively dubbed the J-X and possibly to receive the service designation J-13A - could use the WS10A turbofan engine designed by the Shenyang Liming Motor Company during its development and trials process.
In development for more than a decade, the WS10-series power plant completed air trials earlier this year with an Su-27SK (NATO reporting name: 'Flanker-B') fighter. The WS10A is scheduled for introduction with the PLAAF's new J-10A fighter, which has yet to be formally unveiled.
Continuing research into advanced control techniques is expected to in time allow the air force to field WS10A-powered J-10A and J-X fighters equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzles offering improved aircraft manoeuvrability.
Chinese television has shown images of President Jiang Zemin inspecting this project. The concepts indicate that the thrust-vectoring nozzle can be deflected by up to ±15º in any direction. Perfecting thrust-vectoring flight is one of the key aviation development programmes within Beijing's current five-year plan - a cap ability tipped to "improve the J-10A's short take-off and landing performance and [enable it to] attain the manoeuvrability standard of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter", said one industry source.
An assessment of potential multi-function fire-control radar systems for the new stealth fighter is also under way, with candidates including China's indigenous Type 1473 design. According to an industry source, this has a search distance of 150km and can track up to 15 targets, attacking between six and eight of them simultaneously. The design is currently undergoing upgrade to allow for the integration of a phased-array antenna.
Another option is the Russian Zhemchung system, which could allow a future naval variant of the J-10A to deploy advanced weapons such as the Kh-31A (AS-17: 'Krypton') medium-range anti-ship missile. In addition to planning its own active and passive phased-array antenna design, China is giving consideration to Russia's Pero active antenna, and has also already received 20 980mm slotted antenna sets from Russia.
While AVIC I sources will not speculate when the new fighter might make its first test flight, a debut around the end of the decade could be expected if the project matches the development process for China's J-10A and J-8D projects. Further impetus has been placed on the new programme, however, through Zemin's encouragement that relevant weapons and technologies be acquired from Russia and Ukraine. Zemin has also committed future funding for the J-X concept's continued development.
In a related development, an authorative source within China's military industry has also confirmed to JDW that the air force's first 10 AL-31FN-engined J-10A fighters were deployed with the country's Nanjing Military Command during August 2002 for training activities. The PLAAF's first two-seat J-10B fighters will enter manufacture next year, featuring enhanced air-to-ground and maritime attack capabilities.
^ They also predicted that it was SAC who would lead the design... Not wanting to nitpick, dude, but posting arbitary articles (espicially from JDW) don't really add credibility to anything -- I enjoy most of the articles you post though -- it's just that these articles are very old and only some of their predictions have come true, and some of their predictions originated on forums anyhow.
Though interestingly, they say :
Can anyone find this video clip -- I remember seeing it somewhere. It shows there has been investment and development in TVC.
Though interestingly, they say :
Can anyone find this video clip -- I remember seeing it somewhere. It shows there has been investment and development in TVC.
- Status