J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Red Moon

Junior Member
Here's an older Russian design that was, in concept, a lot like the J-20. It's the MIG-MFI (1.43/1.44) program from the late 1990s. Cancelled in 1997, but they did build one prototype which, I believe, flew in 2000.

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What do you think?

This actually looks like a twin engine J-10, but with two fins. The arrangement of the canards, the wing shape, and the intake are as in the J-10. The wings are not "high mounted", the nose is not chined, etc.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: J-20's Low Observable Axisymmetrical Nozzle (i.e. LOAN) technology

10ypahj.jpg

China's J-20 stealth fighter engine nozzles

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China's J-20 stealth fighter engine nozzles (another view)

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F-35 Lightning II engine nozzle

Those are refined Low Observable Axisymmetrical Nozzles and first tested on a F-16 for the JSF programme. The LOAN was developed after the F-22 and that's why the Raptor doesn't have them.

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Note: Thank you to Shabi1 for the post.

The nozzle of the J-20 does seem to be purposefully designed for some level of stealth. Can anyone see serrations on the nozzle petals like that of the F-35's engines? They don't seem to be as distinct, but I swear there's a circle of small, very small pointy bits jutting out.

It's interesting that they've put so much attention to detail in the very first prototype; from single piece canopy+some level of tint to serrations on the landing gear and engine areas -- yet the LERX is rounded. But seeing as it's behind the canards maybe it won't scatter waves as much from the frontal aspect, and only a little from the side? Anyone care to offer their opinion?
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
I have to disagree with you on that. First of all, it's not hard to get an H1B. to this day, I have not heard anyone who applies for an H1B is denied. Secondly, there are many naturalized US citizens working in the defence industry. And I emphasize the word "naturalized" because these people got their education in a foreign country and their way of thinking is heavily influenced by their foreign culture/education although officically they are US citizens. The uncle of mine that I was talking about would be a good example. Wen Holee would be another example. I have Indian friends who used to work at Los Alamos. Two of my Chinese friends are now working for NASA in Houston and they mentioned that many of their colleagues are Chinese and Indians.

Plus being a caucasian doesn't mean they are Americans. They could be from any of the European nations/Australia, etc. So looks doesn't mean anything. You can't simply say these people are Americans simply because of their skin color.

Naturalized Yes, security background check definitely. I work in dod for long time, and i don't see too many naturalized chinese in all the company i work for, especially if there are 1st gen. Also Almost all naturalized chinese has a degree in US, higher education in china is still lack behind compare to US.

In order to work for defense, 1st you have to have a degree that the company recognize, which mean you basically has to have a degree from a western university(1 yr master, 4-5yr phd), after that You apply H1B, and if you lucky you get a job and they support your green card. Then you get green card(few years), then US citizenship(few more years), by the time you get the US citizenship you already live in US for more than 10yrs+. Only then you are able to apply for sensitive, defense related job. So most experience you get IS from working under US company. I have never heard someone who came from china with work experenice got hired immediately to a DoD job. So NO, the chinese who are here working on military and sensitive stuff got their experence within US. Depend on what part of NASA, there are different level of security.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Plus being a caucasian doesn't mean they are Americans. They could be from any of the European nations/Australia, etc. So looks doesn't mean anything. You can't simply say these people are Americans simply because of their skin color.
I read somewhere that 47% of American engineers (or maybe it was engineers and scientists) are foreign born -- and mostly foreign trained. After Chinese and Indians, it is Russians.
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
Actually, there was an interview with a Russian military expert by Russia Today about J-20, he said that the J-20 used illegal parts, was a technology demonstrator, and never going to be mass produced.

In fact here it is: [video=youtube;gpifTCL7D7A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpifTCL7D7A[/video]

What a homer....Like Russia doesn't need to import any rare earths from China to make military hardware. Where's that report by the American authors at International Assessment and Strategy Center that reveals that Chinese possess equal if not superior avionics/electronics than those of the Russians. I also recall them saying that Russian AESR are extremely unreliable and is more likely behind in China in that area.

Obviously, the F-22 clearly features the software, supercruise ability, electronics and everything but the Russians can keep dreaming about their dominance over the Chinese in this area.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Most of us have no way of checking your claim of race discrimination in US defence industry but one thing is for sure. The high number of these scientists/researchers that presumably failed to pass security clearance will free up many caucasian researchers to do military related work. In addition I really doubt it's that easy to draw the line between military related work and that of civilian.

yes its easy to know what kind work is military vs civilian. for defense company, their project has security level, the government require these project to be finished with people who has clearance, and you can only get clearance if you are citizen, naturilized or not. there are no race discrimination in dod related work, its the clearance and citizenship are hard to get for most chinese. you don't expect government hire you to work on F22 without doing any background check, do you? goto any defensive company website or any job site, you notice alot application relate to defensive require you to have a US citizenship + clearance or able to get one.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
This actually looks like a twin engine J-10, but with two fins. The arrangement of the canards, the wing shape, and the intake are as in the J-10. The wings are not "high mounted", the nose is not chined, etc.

also, J-10 project started in 1980's, J-10 prototype flew in 1998, can I say MIG-MFI concept learn from J-10?
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
THis is the fastest growing and most inpressive thread in the history of SDF! 45 pages in only 4 days! Awesome.

The next thread to explode will be the All About The Chinese Aircraft Carrier Thread.
When the Varyag finally goes to sea I expect that thread to go off the hook! I really expect that ship to go to sea this year.

Keep up the great discussion gents!
I hope you're right, Popeye, but I kind of think it won't be the same. For one, we know too much already... we know more about the Varyag already than we know about the J-20! For two, you know, we kind of got "manipulated" by the way the information was released! Anyway, it has been fun.

Now, if we suddenly discover an almost-completed carrier under construction that has been kept hidden, with catapults, etc... then that thread would really explode!
 
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vesicles

Colonel
Naturalized Yes, security background check definitely. I work in dod for long time, and i don't see too many naturalized chinese in all the company i work for, especially if there are 1st gen. Also Almost all naturalized chinese has a degree in US, higher education in china is still lack behind compare to US.

In order to work for defense, 1st you have to have a degree that the company recognize, which mean you basically has to have a degree from a western university(1 yr master, 4-5yr phd), after that You apply H1B, and if you lucky you get a job and they support your green card. Then you get green card(few years), then US citizenship(few more years), by the time you get the US citizenship you already live in US for more than 10yrs+. Only then you are able to apply for sensitive, defense related job. So most experience you get IS from working under US company. I have never heard someone who came from china with work experenice got hired immediately to a DoD job. So NO, the chinese who are here working on military and sensitive stuff got their experence within US. Depend on what part of NASA, there are different level of security.

Yes, I am VERY familiar with the process you talk about. My parents went through the exact process (I piggy-backed). Yes, most of these people get their post-graduate education in the US, but don't expect them to completely throw away what they had learn in their home country. I am not particularly talking about the exact knowledge/theories we learn in school, but things like the way of thinking, culture, etc. This kind of stuff sticks with you all your life. Just try to argue with my dad about Confucius (although he's been in the States for over 30 years), you'll know what I'm talking about. And developing new technology/systems is a creative process that depends on many things in addition to actual technical knowledge/theories. A lot of times, your cultural up-bringing and way of thinking play a big part.

Additionally, I'm NOT talking about particularly Chinese immigrants. My comments were more aimed at your comments "US technology is purely domestic and has not foreign influence". So I was trying to show you that the US also needs foreign help and many its high tech systems have foreign influence since many of their designers have heavy foreign influence. Although some of my examples were Chinese, I also listed many examples about how European immigrants works in the DoD industry.

So my point is US DoD industry is also influenced by foreigners. If not by Chinese, it could be by Indians, British or German or Russian. The US is too big a melting pot to exclusively conclusively say that its technology has no foreign influence.

I don't know which part of DoD industry you work in, but where I can see DoD industry or institutes are full of first general immigrants. When I was in grad school, I used to collaborate with US Army on projects (about battlefield injuries, especially spinal core injuries since my field of study used to be inflammation). I know that many colleagues I've worked with are first generation immigrants. Most of these people work in biological weapon field (anthrax stuff...).

As a matter of fact, I know people who join the military in the States TO OBTAIN A GREEN CARD. So even the US military has foreigners (with actual foreign citizenship).
 
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