J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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T-U-P

The Punisher
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something that has been bothering me for a while... what's the effect of that antenna (it's an antenna right?) at the nose of the plane in terms of RCS? Does it reduce stealth or is it negligible?
 

kyanges

Junior Member
To date the Ace combat series has NEVER had a Chinese designed aircraft in it, not even the J-8, I doubt they'll ever start. Same with Tom Clancy's HAWX series.

The only time I've seen Chinese aircraft represented in a mainstream game was in the Battlefield series in Battlefield 2. I recall they had to tone down the J-10 too because the developers made it too maneuverable. :p .
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Quick question, does anybody remember that article from a week or so ago by Xinhua IIRC (not too sure) that was written shortly after the first pictures of the J-20 were taken where a government official was denying the existence of the J-20?

I remember the article, but i can't find it. I read it either on Global Times, or perhaps China.org.cn.
 

Quickie

Colonel
So for a quick summary: We saw 2001 fly today, that was the first plane to be seen on pics and the one we originally believed to use AL-31F or WS-10A or so, is that what the high res photos show, or are there different nozzles completely?
The one good pic showing the plane in front of the buildings should be an approach? The rudders seem partially deflected symmetricly, that is, not used to yaw the plane, but to function as an airbrake.
On the pics with the gear down we can see the small door between the rudders open with the yellow box showing, that's holding the drag chute? So basicly gear position determines the state of the drag chute system. Meaning gear down brings the chute to a ready position.
The HUD looks strange somehow, almost like it's an oval glass with it's mounting going all the way around?
The gear doors really actually hang from the plane the whole time, looks wiered, I though at least the front part doors would close when the gear is not in transit, but ok.
From the bottom, it doesn't look like the weapon bays could be really that big any more. Apparently a config similar to F-22 in front of the gear, and probably nothing, or only small space behind it, since that's where the engines are. Or does the bottom bay extent between the main landing gear?
The surface seems to be really smooth.

I think it's clear to us the very first pics of the prototype have a different nozzle from that of the prototype in the first flight. So far, there're no solid sign they are actually 2 different prototypes, like for instance a picture of the two together.

The rudders in that position will always have some braking effect which is useful during landing but becomes additional drag during taking off, somewhat similar to the conventional tail elevator. As I've mentioned before, these indepentantly moving rudders can make for very effective braking action when working together with the canards.
 

tres

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BEIJING—China's first test flight of its stealth fighter Tuesday overshadowed a mission to China by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates to repair frayed military relations, and prompted concern about whether President Hu Jintao and the civilian leadership are fully in control of the increasingly powerful armed forces.

U.S. officials said that President Hu appeared to be taken by surprise when Mr. Gates asked him about the test flight during a meeting, hours after pictures and accounts of it began appearing online.

Analysts said that would be an embarrassment for China's top leader—who in theory controls the military as chairman of the Central Military Commission—just as Chinese officials anxiously try to make sure Mr. Hu's planned trip to the U.S. next week goes smoothly.

If the military deliberately kept Mr. Hu in the dark, that would reinforce concerns that hawkish elements in the military are increasingly driving China's foreign policy—including ties with the U.S.—and that they are trying to enhance their power in China's domestic politics ahead of a leadership transition next year.

"It was clear the civilian leadership was uninformed" of the J-20 test, said a senior U.S. defense official after the meeting between Mr. Gates and Mr. Hu.

Mr. Hu, who is due to step down as party chief in 2012, eventually confirmed to Mr. Gates that the test had taken place and assured him that it was pre-planned and not directed at the U.S., according to the American officials.

Mr. Gates said he accepted Mr. Hu's explanation about the J-20 test flight, but added that he had long-running concerns about civilian control over the Chinese military.

"I have had concerns about this over time," he said. "And frankly, that is one of the reasons I attach importance to a dialogue between the two sides that includes both civilian and military."

Citing diplomatic protocol, the U.S. officials declined to make public further details about how exactly Mr. Hu was informed about the test during the meeting. But television footage showed several uniformed Chinese generals and other senior officers in the room.

China's Foreign Ministry declined to comment on the U.S. account of the meeting. But analysts said that if accurate, it suggested that Mr. Hu had to seek clarification from his own military officials in the middle of the meeting.

China's stealth fighter prototype made its first test flight as Robert Gates, the U.S. Defense Secretary was meeting Chinese civilian leaders in Beijing. Plus, the iPhone comes to Verizon. How will AT&T respond?

The J-20, which has been conducting runway tests for the past several weeks, took off from an airstrip at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute just before 1 p.m. local time and flew for about 15 minutes, according to Chinese bloggers.
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Bloggers also posted video and still images of the sleek, dark-gray, twin-engine plane—which looks similar to the U.S. F-22, the world's only fully operational stealth fighter—taking off and in flight in slightly hazy skies over a built-up area surrounding the airfield.

Military aviation experts say the images suggest that China is making faster-than-expected progress in developing a potential rival to the F-22 and the Russian T-50 which made its first test flight last year.

They also say that the People's Liberation Army, or PLA, appears to have wanted the images made public as Internet censors, who routinely delete politically sensitive material, have allowed them to be circulated.

The episode undercut a core message that Mr. Gates brought to Beijing about the need for transparency and predictability to build trust between the militaries of the world's lone superpower and its rising Asian rival.

Analysts said it also appeared to be a sharp personal message to Mr. Gates, who took a controversial decision to scrap production of the F-22 stealth fighter in 2009, justifying the move partly by saying that China would not be able to produce a similar aircraft by 2020.

WSJ's Rebecca Blumenstein explains to Simon Constable new photos indicate the possibility that the Chinese military has developed a new stealth fighter jet, confirming fears of a military buildup.


Mr. Hu's apparent lack of information is likely to fuel international concern that he and the other eight civilians who make up the Party's Politburo Standing Committee—China's top decision-making body—are losing some of their control over the PLA.

"It suggests worrying levels of assertiveness and defiance of civilian leadership within the PLA," said Rory Medcalf, director of the International Security Program at the Lowy Institute for International Policy in Sydney.

"This revelation confirms that the PLA is willing to take provocative, assertive steps regardless of diplomatic priorities—perhaps even in deliberate opposition to them."

Civilian control of the military has been a central tenet of the Chinese Communist Party since even before it took control of China. "Our principle is that the party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the party," Mao Zedong wrote in a 1938 essay.

That principle has held for most of time since the Communists won power in 1949—though in practice there was often little distinction between the party and military, since most of China's leaders had military experience from the civil war.

In recent years, the party has been run by civilians without military backgrounds who have maintained their authority over the military in part through generous annual increases to the defense budget.


But after two decades of rapid military modernization, many Western and Chinese analysts say some factions within the PLA are pushing a hard-line agenda, which is having increasing impact on decision making in Beijing, especially in the run-up to the party leadership change in 2012.

While opinions aren't uniform within the military, some analysts speculate that nationalist generals are now feeling their power, as they're courted by prospective members of the incoming ruling elite, and are using that as leverage to influence foreign policy.

That agenda was apparent in China's more forceful stance last year on territorial disputes in the East and South China seas, and in hawkish public statements from serving generals and other senior officers, which often pre-empted comments from the civilian leadership.

It is not the first time that gaps have appeared between the military and political hierarchies. A lack of communication was also highlighted on Jan. 11, 2007, when China shocked the world by shooting down a disused satellite with a missile—and the Foreign Ministry appeared not to have been informed.

Later that year, the U.S. aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk was temporarily denied permission for a long-planned port call in Hong Kong—apparently again without the Foreign Ministry's awareness—an incident that Mr. Gates said afterward also suggested a "disconnect" between the military and civilian sides of the Chinese government.

Over the past week, the Foreign Ministry has appeared out of the loop again, repeatedly sidestepping questions about the J-20 images. It did so again Tuesday in a regular briefing from spokesman Hong Lei.

"As technology develops, and in accordance with the needs of national defense, it is natural for countries to upgrade their weapons equipment," he said.

"The development of China's weapons equipment is completely based on the needs of its own security, and it is meant to protect China's sovereignty, security and territorial integrity. It is not aimed at any country or specific target."

Mr. Gates arrived in Beijing Sunday on a three-day mission to deepen and stabilize military exchanges that China has repeatedly suspended for political reasons, most recently in January 2010 over U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.

However, China's military appears to be doing the bare minimum to revive military ties and ensure Mr. Hu's visit goes smoothly, while at the same time showcasing its growing firepower before a domestic and international audience, analysts say.

On Monday, Mr. Gates's Chinese counterpart, Gen. Liang Guanglie, rebuffed a U.S. proposal for a clear timetable of deeper strategic defense talks, and made clear that China would suspend military ties again if the U.S. sold more arms to Taiwan.

Mr. Gates said Tuesday that Chinese officials asked for more details on the agenda of the talks and that U.S. officials were drafting more concrete plans on the dialogue. "They are taking the proposal seriously," he said.

Pentagon officials said Mr. Gates was greeted enthusiastically by Mr. Hu and Yang Jiechi, the foreign minister, Tuesday and that the civilian leadership seems warmer to U.S. calls for an in-depth strategic dialogue.

But the more positive tone of Tuesday's meetings was soon eclipsed by the test flight, which aviation experts say showed that China had now moved on to testing the J-20's flight control software, its engines, and its aerodynamics.

But The Wall Street Journal did reach a waitress in the 365 Recreation Tea Shop, next to the airfield, who said several workers from the Institute were playing cards there.

"Did you guys see the test fight today, did it actually take off?" she was heard asking the customers, who were heard replying: "Yes, it took off and flew!" They declined to speak directly on the telephone with a reporter.


This just shows a deep misunderstanding of each other on both sides. The Chinese leaders were just surprised how surprised the Americans were, and being polite.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
looking at all of photo of J-20,from the first photo taken before christmas eve to latest.
the frist photo,no doubt taken from ordinary cell phone camera, it lack optical zoom .that why all the photo are so blurr other was fear of being arrested ,decided to hide behind the tree. to take picture but when the word of mouth reach the public about the new jet, people start bring high resolution (and definition)LRO camera.and the picture becoming more clearly.
 

Subedei

Banned Idiot
The maiden-flight of the J-20 challenges the American assumption that they will maintain air-superiority in -as they call it- the western Pacific!
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
biggest challenge right now will be data fusion, particular in the solfware area.APG-77 radar is not ordinary radar ,it was part of net centric warfare .information obtain by radar or ALR-94 can connected to ground sea and air asset,providing total picture of battlefield.
likely J-20 avionic system may be compatible to F-35 (or F-15Se) than f-22
 

delft

Brigadier
The fact, that you don't see rivets on some aircraft might be caused by the panels from which the skin is made are not riveted but bonded. If the glue is good you can save a lot of weight.
 

Subedei

Banned Idiot
biggest challenge right now will be data fusion

Indeed, challenges remain!

Certainly, we expect that PLAAF is cognizant of these -and other- challenges. If, as past practice indicates, the production model is +five years off, that allows China significant time to further develop avionic, sensory, and data fusion hardware and software and to include latest versions of these into the production platform.

Wow, just writing that got me excited!
 
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