J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Indian sentenced in US court for selling stealth secrets to China. That's HOT...


US engineer jailed for selling secrets to China

xg0675.jpg


* Source: Global Times
* [08:18 January 26 2011]
* Comments

A former B-2 stealth bomber engineer guilty of selling classified military technology to China that could help cloak missiles has been sentenced to 32 years in prison, the US Justice Department said Tuesday.

Noshir Gowadia, 66, of Hawaii, was convicted of five offenses in August following a trial in federal court on the US island state. He had been accused of passing on design information that would allow cruise missiles to avoid infrared detection.

"Mr. Gowadia provided some of our country's most sensitive weapons-related designs to the Chinese government for money. He is now being held accountable for his actions," Assistant Attorney General for National Security David Kris said in a statement.

From about 1968 to 1986, Gowadia served as an engineer with defense contractor Northrop Grumman Corporation, where he helped develop the "unique propulsion system and low observable capabilities of the B-2" bomber, the Justice Department said.

Prosecutors alleged that from 2003 to 2005 Gowadia traveled six times to China, where he helped with testing and data analysis that helped authorities in developing a stealthy cruise missile exhaust system.

At the time of his arrest in 2005 he had been paid at least $110,000 by China, the justice department said.

Gowadia was also convicted of exporting classified information about the B-2 bomber, money laundering, and filing false tax returns.

Chinese defense officials and military analysts insisted that the country's stealth fighter jet is a result of technological innovation.

AFP

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I posted this or a similar story several days ago..

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/strategic-defense/chinese-espionage-thread-8-3771.html#post137973
 

Martian

Senior Member
You cannot design and build a Ferrari by studying a burnt Volkswagen Beetle

Indian sentenced in US court for selling stealth secrets to China. That's HOT...

J-20 stealth fighter jet 'innovative, not stolen from US plane'

* Source: Global Times
* [08:06 January 25 2011]
* Comments

By Song Shengxia

Chinese defense officials and military analysts insisted Monday that the country's J-20 stealth fighter jet is a result of technological innovation, refuting a report that alleges the aircraft was developed out of technology gleaned from a downed US fighter.

A Croatian admiral who served during the Kosovo War told the AP on Sunday that China formulated the technology for its J-20 jet from a F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

"At the time, our intelligence reports told of Chinese agents criss-crossing the region where the F-117 disintegrated, buying up parts of the plane from local farmers," Admiral Davor Domazet-Loso was quoted as saying. "We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies."

An official at the Ministry of National Defense who declined to be named told the Global Times that "it's not the first time foreign media has smeared newly unveiled Chinese military technologies. It's meaningless to respond to such speculations."

China successfully debuted the J-20 in Chengdu, Sichuan Province, earlier this month. The test flight coincided with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates' visit to Beijing, but he was assured the timing was just a coincidence.

Following the successful test flight, speculations and assessments of Beijing's military advancement could be heard throughout the world.

Xu Yongling, one of China's top test pilots, told the Global Times that the J-20 possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability and powerful air mobility that are technological breakthroughs for the country.

"Different from previous fighters such as the J-7 and J-8, which drew on the merits of aircrafts from other countries, the J-20 is a masterpiece of China's technological innovation," Xu said, comparing the stealth jet to the US Air Force's F-22 Raptor stealth jet and Russia's first stealth fighter, the Sukhoi T-50.

Xu said it would have been impossible for China to glean technology from the US' F-117, whose stealth technology lags far behind fourth-generation fighters and was regarded as "outdated" even at the time when it was reportedly shot down.

And as for the radiation-absorbent, exterior coating technology adopted by the F-117, Xu said it would be hard to copy that technology from the wreckage due to its complicated production process.

Developed in the 1970s and commencing service in 1983, the F-117 Nighthawk was the world's first stealth fighter - nearly invisible to radar.

In March 1999, during NATO's aerial bombing of Serbia in the Kosovo War, a Serbian anti-aircraft missile shot one of the Nighthawks down. An editorial published by the Taiwan-based China Times on Saturday said that the shooting down of the F-117 could have provided an excuse for Taiwan to reform its military.

Parts of the downed F-117 wreckage - including the left wing with the US Air Force insignia, the cockpit canopy, the ejection seat, the pilot's helmet and a radio - are exhibited at Belgrade's aviation museum, according to an AP report.

"I don't know what happened to the rest of the plane," said Zoran Milicevic, deputy director of the museum, according to the AP. "A lot of delegations visited us in the past, including the Chinese, Rus-sians and Americans ... but no one showed any interest in taking any part of the jet."

Wang Yanan, an associate editor in chief at Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times that the F-117 could hardly have inspired the development of the J-20, due to the design differences between the two generations of fighters. He added that it is worthless to take an interest in obsolete technology for developing more state-of-art technologies.

"Despite being dubbed a stealth fighter, the F-117 functioned as a bomber because of its low speed and limited air attacking abilities, while the J-20, more resembling the F-22, is designed to have a powerful air attacking capability with a fast flying speed," Wang said.

Responding to the accusations about China's stealing of new technologies, Wang conceded that, as a forerunner for new technologies, the US can only provide a reference point for other countries but will never leak any details about the technologies, leaving many countries to develop weapons on their own or buy them from another country.

The US has, in recent years, stepped up its offensive against what it calls "Chinese tech spying." The FBI increased its agents assigned to counter alleged Chinese espionage from 150 in 2001 to more than 350 in 2007, USA Today reported.

Separately, Noshir Gowadia, an Indian-born former B-2 bomber engineer convicted of helping China design a stealth cruise missile, was due to be sentenced in court today.

Li Daguang, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times that such accusations are groundless and originate from envy and wariness of China's technological advancements.

"China not only has the freedom to develop high-end technologies but also the capability to develop them independently," he said.

Zhu Shanshan and Huang Jingjing contributed to this story

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Has the Indian ex-B-2 stealth bomber engineer really sold sensitive military technology to China?

m96cg9.jpg


An ex-B-2 stealth bomber engineer, who sold sensitive military technology to China, has been given a 32-year jail term



AFP News-- US engineer jailed for tech sale to China

A former B-2 stealth bomber engineer, found guilty of selling sensitive military technology to China, has been given a 32-year prison sentence, a report said.

Quote:
Noshir Gowadia, 66, was convicted of five offenses in August following a trial in a federal court in Hawaii. He had been accused of passing on design information that would allow cruise missiles to avoid infra-red detection.
"We're a little disappointed (the judge) didn't give him a life sentence, that's the sentence that would've sent the best message," assistant US attorney Ken Sorenson said Monday after the sentenced was announced, reported local KHON2 news.
...

During his trial, prosecutors alleged Gowardia made repeated trips to China between 2003 and 2005 to provide defense services in the form of design, test support and test data analysis of technologies related to China's cruise missile programme.


US engineer jailed for selling secrets to China

xg0675.jpg


* Source: Global Times
* [08:18 January 26 2011]
* Comments

A former B-2 stealth bomber engineer guilty of selling classified military technology to China that could help cloak missiles has been sentenced to 32 years in prison, the US Justice Department said Tuesday.

Noshir Gowadia, 66, of Hawaii, was convicted of five offenses in August following a trial in federal court on the US island state. He had been accused of passing on design information that would allow cruise missiles to avoid infrared detection.

"Mr. Gowadia provided some of our country's most sensitive weapons-related designs to the Chinese government for money. He is now being held accountable for his actions," Assistant Attorney General for National Security David Kris said in a statement.

From about 1968 to 1986, Gowadia served as an engineer with defense contractor Northrop Grumman Corporation, where he helped develop the "unique propulsion system and low observable capabilities of the B-2" bomber, the Justice Department said.

Prosecutors alleged that from 2003 to 2005 Gowadia traveled six times to China, where he helped with testing and data analysis that helped authorities in developing a stealthy cruise missile exhaust system.

At the time of his arrest in 2005 he had been paid at least $110,000 by China, the justice department said.

Gowadia was also convicted of exporting classified information about the B-2 bomber, money laundering, and filing false tax returns.

Chinese defense officials and military analysts insisted that the country's stealth fighter jet is a result of technological innovation.

AFP

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Jan 23, 2011
B-2 Engineer Convicted of Selling Military Secrets To China

B-2_stealth_bomber.jpg


A former B-2 stealth bomber engineer convicted of selling military secrets to China is due to be sentenced in federal court on Monday.

Noshir Gowadia, 66, faces up to life in prison for his conviction on 14 counts, including conspiracy, communicating national defence information to aid a foreign nation, and violating the arms export control act.

Chief U.S. District Judge Susan Oki Mollway is due to issue her sentence after listening to arguments from the prosecution and defence. Gowadia, who has been in custody without bail since his 2005 arrest, is also expected to have an opportunity to make a statement.

A federal jury in August found Gowadia guilty after deliberating for six days. They had heard 39 days of evidence over nearly four months. The jury acquitted him on three counts.

Prosecutors said Gowadia helped China design a stealth cruise missile to get money to pay the $15,000-a-month mortgage on his multimillion dollar home overlooking the ocean in Haiku on Maui. They said he pocketed at least $110,000 from the sale of military secrets.

They said Gowadia showed his Chinese contacts how his stealth cruise missile design would be effective against U.S. air-to-air missiles.

Gowadia's defence attorneys said it's true the engineer gave China the design for a stealth cruise missile exhaust nozzle but he based his work on unclassified, publicly available information. Gowadia's son has said his father plans to appeal.

The sentencing comes just weeks after China conducted a flight test of its new J-20 stealth fighter during a visit to Beijing by U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates.

The Jan. 11 flight was held at an airfield in Chengdu, where prosecutors say Gowadia delivered an oral presentation on classified stealth technology in 2003.

The city is home to the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute and is a centre for Chinese fighter aircraft and cruise missile reseach and development.

Gowadia helped design the propulsion system for the B-2 bomber when he worked at Northrop Corp., now known as Northrop Grumman Corp., between 1968 and 1986.

Born in India, he moved to the U.S. for postgraduate work in the 1960s and became a U.S. citizen about a decade later. He retired from Northrop for health reasons in 1986, two years before the B-2 made its public debut.

Gowadia moved to Maui in 1999 from the U.S. mainland where he had been doing consulting work after retiring from Northrop.

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It is always dull to have to explain the basics to a conspiracy theorist, but here we go again. The J-20 is an air-superiority fighter. It is designed to super-cruise and carry lots of air-to-air missiles to control airspace.

On the other hand, the F-117 and B-2 are both subsonic bombers. They are designed to drop bombs on ground targets. To anyone that is knowledgeable about fighter aircraft, it is ludicrous to believe that you can glean stealth design secrets from the husk of a burnt F-117 bomber/Volkswagen Beetle and use it to design and build a supercruising J-20/Ferrari.

I hope this silly rumor is put to rest, because I'm getting tired of debunking it.

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"The F-117A was widely publicized during the Persian Gulf War of 1991. It was commonly called the "Stealth Fighter" though it was an attack aircraft, making its F-designation misleading.
...
The F-117A's split internal bay can carry 5,000 lb (2,300 kg) of ordnance. Typical weapons are a pair of GBU-10, GBU-12, or GBU-27 laser-guided bombs, two BLU-109 penetration bombs, or two Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs), a GPS/INS guided stand-off bomb.
...
Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 0.92 (617 mph, 993 km/h)
* Cruise speed: Mach 0.92"

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"The Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit (also known as the Stealth Bomber) is an American heavy bomber with "low observable" stealth technology designed to penetrate dense anti-aircraft defenses and deploy both conventional and nuclear weapons.
...
Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 0.95 (550 knots, 630 mph, 1,010 km/h) at 40,000 ft altitude / Mach 0.95 at sea level[66]
* Cruise speed: Mach 0.85[45] (487 knots, 560 mph, 900 km/h) at 40,000 ft altitude"
 
Last edited:

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
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Information leaked by the huzhigeng, the "undercover agent" who originally leaked the J-20 in 2009. I did a translation of his work before and you can find it in the original next generation fighter section.

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Here are his main points:

Wow I haven't checked that thread in a couple of weeks and it appears that Huzhigeng (original leaker of the J-20 who got 97% of the stuff right) is on a roll. Here are a few points he made:

1) The J-20 will not use 2-d thrust vectoring. 3-d thrust vectoring will be employed instead on the final plane.
2) The "triplane" design by the SAC was terrible compared to Chengdu's design. It had a much larger frontal RCS as well as worse agility.
3) He said that criticisms of the canards are unfair. The carte intakes and the large tail rudders on the F-22 are also bad for the RCS.
4) Claims that the J-20 is too long to be an air superiority fighter are absurd. The plane is around 20 meters and both the Su-27 and YF-23 exceeded that length.
5) PLAAF had very high manueverability and supercruise standards for the J-XX project. SAC's design didn't exceed the design while the J-20 did.
6) SAC's design is even longer than the J-20.
7) J-20's frontal stealth is worse than that of the F-22 but isn't significantly larger than that of the F-22. As a result close combat-capabilities are emphasized.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
Information leaked by the huzhigeng, the "undercover agent" who originally leaked the J-20 in 2009. I did a translation of his work before and you can find it in the original next generation fighter section.

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Here are his main points:

Wow I haven't checked that thread in a couple of weeks and it appears that Huzhigeng (original leaker of the J-20 who got 97% of the stuff right) is on a roll. Here are a few points he made:

1) The J-20 will not use 2-d thrust vectoring. 3-d thrust vectoring will be employed instead on the final plane.
2) The "triplane" design by the SAC was terrible compared to Chengdu's design. It had a much larger frontal RCS as well as worse agility.
3) He said that criticisms of the canards are unfair. The carte intakes and the large tail rudders on the F-22 are also bad for the RCS.
4) Claims that the J-20 is too long to be an air superiority fighter are absurd. The plane is around 20 meters and both the Su-27 and YF-23 exceeded that length.
5) PLAAF had very high manueverability and supercruise standards for the J-XX project. SAC's design didn't exceed the design while the J-20 did.
6) SAC's design is even longer than the J-20.
7) J-20's frontal stealth is worse than that of the F-22 but isn't significantly larger than that of the F-22. As a result close combat-capabilities are emphasized.

Thanks! I wonder if we'll ever REALLY know what Shenyang's proposal was exactly? Also any word in Shenyang's other rumoured projects?
 

Centrist

Junior Member
Information leaked by the huzhigeng, the "undercover agent" who originally leaked the J-20 in 2009. I did a translation of his work before and you can find it in the original next generation fighter section.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Here are his main points:

Wow I haven't checked that thread in a couple of weeks and it appears that Huzhigeng (original leaker of the J-20 who got 97% of the stuff right) is on a roll. Here are a few points he made:

1) The J-20 will not use 2-d thrust vectoring. 3-d thrust vectoring will be employed instead on the final plane.
2) The "triplane" design by the SAC was terrible compared to Chengdu's design. It had a much larger frontal RCS as well as worse agility.
3) He said that criticisms of the canards are unfair. The carte intakes and the large tail rudders on the F-22 are also bad for the RCS.
4) Claims that the J-20 is too long to be an air superiority fighter are absurd. The plane is around 20 meters and both the Su-27 and YF-23 exceeded that length.
5) PLAAF had very high manueverability and supercruise standards for the J-XX project. SAC's design didn't exceed the design while the J-20 did.
6) SAC's design is even longer than the J-20.
7) J-20's frontal stealth is worse than that of the F-22 but isn't significantly larger than that of the F-22. As a result close combat-capabilities are emphasized.

Any info on what engines the prototypes are using?
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Thanks! I wonder if we'll ever REALLY know what Shenyang's proposal was exactly? Also any word in Shenyang's other rumoured projects?

SAC's design, nicknamed the "Snow Bird", utilized a "triplane design". The plane had canards but retained the rear horizontal stabilizers. The SAC's design was longer and even larger than the J-20 but was inferior in every spec. Despite the complex flight control it was less manueverable than the J-20 and overall had a much higher RCS due to the proliferation of air foils.

It is also important to note that the J-16 probably won't be the SAC "Snow Bird".

Any info on what engines the prototypes are using?

He didn't say anything about it specifically. I though we all agreed that the WS-10G engines were used.
 
SAC's design, nicknamed the "Snow Bird", utilized a "triplane design". The plane had canards but retained the rear horizontal stabilizers. The SAC's design was longer and even larger than the J-20 but was inferior in every spec. Despite the complex flight control it was less manueverable than the J-20 and overall had a much higher RCS due to the proliferation of air foils.

It is also important to note that the J-16 probably won't be the SAC "Snow Bird".



He didn't say anything about it specifically. I though we all agreed that the WS-10G engines were used.

You mean WS-10G for now, or permanently? And by #7, what does that imply? I wonder if we will get to know more about the engines' progress, any additional information. Don't we all wish we get to know all the specs? (I don't know why but we suddenly sound like boys during their puberty being exposed to internet porn for the first time)
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
SAC's design, nicknamed the "Snow Bird", utilized a "triplane design". The plane had canards but retained the rear horizontal stabilizers. The SAC's design was longer and even larger than the J-20 but was inferior in every spec. Despite the complex flight control it was less manueverable than the J-20 and overall had a much higher RCS due to the proliferation of air foils.

So whats the point of designing a large and heavy fighter that is inferior in everyway when compared to J-20? I can imagine why they would want a light fighter, with stealth capability but this?

For export purposes?
 

SteelBird

Colonel
It is also important to note that the J-16 probably won't be the SAC "Snow Bird".

How I wonder you guys talking J-16 like it's a real plane out there? From what I know, J-16 is just a speculation or more likely just a rumor. Do you guys have any proof that the project exists?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
How I wonder you guys talking J-16 like it's a real plane out there? From what I know, J-16 is just a speculation or more likely just a rumor. Do you guys have any proof that the project exists?

Apart from huitong and the like there is no evidence, as with almost everything related to the PLA -- imo it's not as "real" as the J-20 (back when it was the J-XX), a couple of years ago, when most people said it wasn't "real". But it's been mentioned numerous times that most people seem to be willing to take a leap of faith -- J-16 at the moment sounds far more realistic than the JH-7B or any H-8 or H-9 or what not...

Of course all this can change in an instant -- remember when we thought J-15 was this?
J-13.jpg
 
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