J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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Atomicfrog

Captain
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Would really like to know where you have got your data about dogfights ever being supersonic. Or even being transient in that regime. I have never seen it, or heard of it discussed by any pilot anywhere ever.
Yep, you kill so much speed maneouvering that you will not be supersonic anyway... big change in direction and lowering speed is way better than a long supersonic turn to evade a missile...

The only things about dofights and supersonic i remember is a F4e over Vietnam against a Mig19 (more a dive than dogfight) and the tiger F11f that shoot himself while diving at supersonic speed after firing...
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Yep, you kill so much speed maneouvering that you will not be supersonic anyway... big change in direction and lowering speed is way better than a long supersonic turn to evade a missile...

The only things about dofights and supersonic i remember is a F4e over Vietnam against a Mig19 (more a dive than dogfight) and the tiger F11f that shoot himself while diving at supersonic speed after firing...

Would really like to know where you have got your data about dogfights ever being supersonic. Or even being transient in that regime. I have never seen it, or heard of it discussed by any pilot anywhere ever.
The Eurofighter and the F-22 both use supercruise to recover energy in dog fights as a common tactic, and the F-15, I believe, employs climbing to recover energy, which can push it back into the supersonic regime on the way down. There’s a reason supercruise was touted as such an advantage.
 

Midgie

New Member
Registered Member
The Eurofighter and the F-22 both use supercruise to recover energy in dog fights as a common tactic, and the F-15, I believe, employs climbing to recover energy, which can push it back into the supersonic regime on the way down. There’s a reason supercruise was touted as such an advantage.
If by “dogfight” you mean within visual range/at or post merge then you are very much incorrect. Most BFM/dogfights are at full afterburner post the initial turn. Energy is gained by easing the turn but this will lose you turning rate or blow out the radius, so it’s a delicate balance between rate of turn and energy lost/gained.

Where a TVC J-20 is going to be advantageous over non-tvc is in the slow fight. Just like the TVC Flanker.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
If by “dogfight” you mean within visual range/at or post merge then you are very much incorrect. Most BFM/dogfights are at full afterburner post the initial turn. Energy is gained by easing the turn but this will lose you turning rate or blow out the radius, so it’s a delicate balance between rate of turn and energy lost/gained.

Where a TVC J-20 is going to be advantageous over non-tvc is in the slow fight. Just like the TVC Flanker.
Remember, the context of my original comment was on defensive maneuvers, of which both missile evasion and energy recovery are included. You’re never going to sustain supersonic speed, and you wouldn’t want to, while positioning to get a shot off, but the moment you’re on the wrong end of a lock or you’re at risk of being out maneuvered, regaining energy is your number one priority.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Supercruise means sustained travel at supersonic speed, I don't see what that has to do with air combat energy management

Sustained travel yes, depending on definition, but also a part of it is being able to achieve supersonic speed and sustain it without afterburners.
Greater ease of efficiently achieving supersonic speeds without needing afterburners is indeed relevant for energy management.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Supercruise means sustained travel at supersonic speed, I don't see what that has to do with air combat energy management
Supercruise means being able to sustain supersonic flight without afterburners. That also means the combination of available thrust and drag characteristics makes acceleration into the supersonic regime a viable way to recover more energy and regain energy advantage.
 

FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
ws-15 is more powerful than WS-10. But modern warfare depends more on the power of sensors, communications, avionics.

The J-20 was unaffected by the lack of a WS-15 engine. China will continue to improve the WS-10 and optimize subsystems.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Supercruise is used for a lot of things. For one not having the afterburners turned on reduces your heat signature. So it is important when you want to do penetration of enemy airspace without getting detected early. But in combat airplanes typically turn on reheat (afterburners). Unless they are low on fuel for some reason.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Guys ...we are once again in a long discussion on aerial combat and so on, which is in no way related specifically to the J-20.

Come back to the topic or discuss this in a better fitting thread.
 
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