J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII


siegecrossbow

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Any idea what is Rafale CRS? With majority cost of the unit coming from their radar evading SPECTRA, India is sure that thier Rafale already "proven" to have beaten F-22 and J-20 will be the same.
There are actually many RCS reduction measures incorporated into the Rafale including sawtooth patterning on aircraft skin, planform alignment of canard and wings, and S-shaped air-duct. According to engineers at Dassault they can actually achieve 0.01m^2 at select angles. However, this is frontal RCS of a naked aircraft. Once it starts carrying external load then the RCS size will balloon exponentially. This is why true fifth gen fighters pay the weight and structural penalties for internal weapons bay.
 

ZeEa5KPul

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There are actually many RCS reduction measures incorporated into the Rafale including sawtooth patterning on aircraft skin, planform alignment of canard and wings, and S-shaped air-duct. According to engineers at Dassault they can actually achieve 0.01m^2 at select angles. However, this is frontal RCS of a naked aircraft. Once it starts carrying external load then the RCS size will balloon exponentially. This is why true fifth gen fighters pay the weight and structural penalties for internal weapons bay.
I've actually taken a look at some pictures of the Rafale from some representative angles, and it indeed seems to use some of the stealth-shaping techniques of the J-20. I just eyeballed it, but it appears that the leading edges of the wings and canards are aligned, while the trailing edges are counteraligned. However, there are significant ways that the plane deviates from sound RCS minimizing principles: the canard roots and wing do not lie on the same plane, and the plane has a single straight tail. As you mentioned, external weapons carriage is also a severe limitation.

So, essentially a gimped J-20 planform.
 

Bltizo

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There are actually many RCS reduction measures incorporated into the Rafale including sawtooth patterning on aircraft skin, planform alignment of canard and wings, and S-shaped air-duct. According to engineers at Dassault they can actually achieve 0.01m^2 at select angles. However, this is frontal RCS of a naked aircraft. Once it starts carrying external load then the RCS size will balloon exponentially. This is why true fifth gen fighters pay the weight and structural penalties for internal weapons bay.
I've actually taken a look at some pictures of the Rafale from some representative angles, and it indeed seems to use some of the stealth-shaping techniques of the J-20. I just eyeballed it, but it appears that the leading edges of the wings and canards are aligned, while the trailing edges are counteraligned. However, there are significant ways that the plane deviates from sound RCS minimizing principles: the canard roots and wing do not lie on the same plane, and the plane has a single straight tail. As you mentioned, external weapons carriage is also a severe limitation.

So, essentially a gimped J-20 planform.

I commend your explanations for why a 4+ generation airframe's RCS reduction measures simply cannot compare to a proper 5th generation aircraft, but at the same time, the sheer extent of news media (mostly Indian) that have touted the Rafale as the descent of a diety makes it a bit hard to refute the sheer degree of conviction that their tabloids have been pushing.

I kid you not, the below is just one example from
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====

I have a feeling we might get a large amount of people reading such articles and similar in terms of "comparing" Rafale with J-20 in coming days and weeks, so it might be a good idea to know where the basis and reasoning of some of these questions might come from..


Note, I write this post specifically because I don't want this thread to turn into a Rafale and J-20 comparison thread o_O
 

Phead128

Junior Member
I guess Rafales are so good compared to J-20s, India does not need to develop AMCA or purchase Su-57MKIs anymore. :cool:

India hits two birds with one stone, air superiority NOW and well into the 2030s-2040s. Why bother with 5th gen when Rafale can do the job!

Don't stop the enemy from blundering into overconfidence/hubris. (maybe Sun Tzu said this)
 

siegecrossbow

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I commend your explanations for why a 4+ generation airframe's RCS reduction measures simply cannot compare to a proper 5th generation aircraft, but at the same time, the sheer extent of news media (mostly Indian) that have touted the Rafale as the descent of a diety makes it a bit hard to refute the sheer degree of conviction that their tabloids have been pushing.

I kid you not, the below is just one example from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!





====

I have a feeling we might get a large amount of people reading such articles and similar in terms of "comparing" Rafale with J-20 in coming days and weeks, so it might be a good idea to know where the basis and reasoning of some of these questions might come from..


Note, I write this post specifically because I don't want this thread to turn into a Rafale and J-20 comparison thread o_O
I actually am not too upset about people ragging on the J-20. To attack it with such vehement dismissal means that it is worth attacking in the first place. No one would, for instance, compare a J-8 with the Rafale in the first place. The fact that they are even bringing up the J-20 is testament to its success.

I also get a lot of F-35 vibes from all the Indian media hatred. Reminds me of how Carlo Kopp kept on ragging on it the early 2010s.

Finally, it is just the nature of Indian media to brag about whatever acquisition they made. The religious fervor they are devoting to the Rafale is mind boggling. However I don’t doubt that they would’ve showered the FGFA with praises had that deal gone through. Nowadays a lot of Indians are actually insulting Russian military hardware. I wonder what would happen if Rafale doesn’t live up to their expectations in the next conflict.
 

Figaro

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Registered Member
I commend your explanations for why a 4+ generation airframe's RCS reduction measures simply cannot compare to a proper 5th generation aircraft, but at the same time, the sheer extent of news media (mostly Indian) that have touted the Rafale as the descent of a diety makes it a bit hard to refute the sheer degree of conviction that their tabloids have been pushing.

I kid you not, the below is just one example from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!





====

I have a feeling we might get a large amount of people reading such articles and similar in terms of "comparing" Rafale with J-20 in coming days and weeks, so it might be a good idea to know where the basis and reasoning of some of these questions might come from..


Note, I write this post specifically because I don't want this thread to turn into a Rafale and J-20 comparison thread o_O
I think you should write an article on the Diplomat for this! I am sure such a comparison would quickly get picked up by Indian media and be a massive hit :D. It definitely will send some shockwaves there.
 

Bltizo

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I actually am not too upset about people ragging on the J-20. To attack it with such vehement dismissal means that it is worth attacking in the first place. No one would, for instance, compare a J-8 with the Rafale in the first place. The fact that they are even bringing up the J-20 is testament to its success.

I also get a lot of F-35 vibes from all the Indian media hatred. Reminds me of how Carlo Kopp kept on ragging on it the early 2010s.

Finally, it is just the nature of Indian media to brag about whatever acquisition they made. The religious fervor they are devoting to the Rafale is mind boggling. However I don’t doubt that they would’ve showered the FGFA with praises had that deal gone through. Nowadays a lot of Indians are actually insulting Russian military hardware. I wonder what would happen if Rafale doesn’t live up to their expectations in the next conflict.

I think you should write an article on the Diplomat for this! I am sure such a comparison would quickly get picked up by Indian media and be a massive hit :D. It definitely will send some shockwaves there.

I don't want to mock their comparisons too much, it's just that I think for the purpose of this thread in the next little while it may be instructive for us to treat any questions that might be a result of those kind of articles with the level of attention that it deserves -- which is to say little to none.

Let's not turn this flagship thread into something silly and idiotic.
 

Daniel707

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder what would happen if Rafale doesn’t live up to their expectations in the next conflict.
Then they will claim Chinese data is fake and make their own numbers out of nothing without any concrete proof. Just like they did in Galwan Valley incident.
"Superior IAF Rafale easily shot down XX numbers of China's Air Forces J-20 in 3 minutes Aerial warfare"


I don't want to mock their comparisons too much, it's just that I think for the purpose of this thread in the next little while it may be instructive for us to treat any questions that might be a result of those kind of articles with the level of attention that it deserves -- which is to say little to none.

Let's not turn this flagship thread into something silly and idiotic.
Yes, I personally hope you make an objective analysis in diplomat too.

Not for mocking them, but for peace.

Under estimating enemy is one of major reason some country goes to war.
Imagine if majority of Indian politician believe that crap, under estimating Chinese Capability..and they become happy trigger with that crap in their mindset.


Sometimes, we don't realize how much one wrong analysis can affect decision makers.

Keep up your good work anyway @Bltizo
Just ignore my personal opinion if you don't like
 

Inst

Senior Member
Like I said before, Blitzo and Latenlazy shouldn't get so worked up about what people publish in the news media. A lot of this stuff is internal propaganda; it doesn't need to be true, it just needs to appeal to the target audience who need to believe in a "Bharat Stronk!" narrative.

Talking with Indian friends and discussing really bad articles in the Hindustani Times over the nature of Chinese conscription (recycling in part a really bad article in SmallWarsJournal working on the same fallacy, and for less informed readers, the PLA is a conscript army in name only, as they get enough volunteers due to the size of the Chinese population), I was informed that a substantial part of Indian media is owned by a single family with Hindu nationalist pretensions.

In other words, you're getting pissed off over Fox News-type coverage, except because of a lack of familiarity with Indian media, you don't even know it's Fox News.

===

As to the Rafale vs J-20 claims, as I've made clear before, any casual measurement reveals the J-20's canards are not coplanar with the main wing. A strict measurement reveals the same for ventral fins, although the margin of ventral fin vs tailfin alignment is very very small.

And if the Rafale can achieve 0.01 m^2 at select angles, the J-20 can achieve 0.0001 m^2 at select angles as shown by various RCS simulations.
 

Inst

Senior Member
you are right, but like what I said, given a rough estimation over the number @Inst claimed according to the pixel counting should give a length closer to the real thing... but still an estimation
Except all of the estimates are within 2-3%. One thing I've noticed is that if you want to work off the grid method, there's about a 0.77% incline reducing the effective sizes of the grid boxes.

If you want to spend a couple of days work on the project, you can get some very precise numbers from working off the relative distortion of boxes over distance from the image center to compensate for perspective.

But I think it's a fact that the J-20 is longer than the Su-57, although narrower in wingspan, and the J-20 ranges from 20.8 meters to 21.3 meters, and 12.8 meters in wingspan to 13.2 meters in wingspan.
 

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