J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII


ougoah

Captain
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I thought the most popular explaination for a twin seat 5th generation fighter is the second man is responsible for coordinating a flight of stealth UCAVs acting as wingman?
It has been hinted that semi autonomous drones will be complementing these fighters. I really can't see a need for a second man. Zero 5th gen fighters have a second man and only the Indians wanted one for their FGFA version of the Su-57.

I still doubt the development is twin seat version but would interpret it has indicating drone controller. Someone closer to the frontline and not ground or Y-series based hanging very far back. The second pilot would have better SA and probably get more up to date information. Could also act and command drones faster.

More likely it's just a false rumour.
 

crash8pilot

Junior Member
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I thought the most popular explaination for a twin seat 5th generation fighter is the second man is responsible for coordinating a flight of stealth UCAVs acting as wingman?
It has been hinted that semi autonomous drones will be complementing these fighters. I really can't see a need for a second man. Zero 5th gen fighters have a second man and only the Indians wanted one for their FGFA version of the Su-57.

I still doubt the development is twin seat version but would interpret it has indicating drone controller. Someone closer to the frontline and not ground or Y-series based hanging very far back. The second pilot would have better SA and probably get more up to date information. Could also act and command drones faster.

More likely it's just a false rumour.
The PLA's procurement philosophy is to fit out a generation, produce a generation, and design a generation (装备一代, 生产一代, 预研一代). I just think drone controlling is seemingly too complex of a concept to implement for the generation the J-20 was meant for.
 

Deino

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I have been hearing a similar rumour about the maiden flight of a new J-20 variant over at cjdby. In the rumour I've been hearing it's a twin seat version. The rumour didn't say if it was regular twin seat or tandem seat.


Oh well, when even
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confirms this!


I've checked my timeline and seems like no one is discussing about it?
"A major variant of J-20", Q30 has confirmed that it will be the long-rumored twin seater. He even already know the dimensions of the aircraft-despite of course he can't said the number.

But probably after the most recent Y-20B & WS-20 fiasco we all should be a bit more patient and careful with posting rumours, reports and images?
 
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Totoro

Captain
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Twin seater so late in development doesn't sound like a conversion trainer variant. But then again, if they initially went with a plan of no trainer variant and through these few years came to the conclusion their initial assessment was wrong and trainer IS preferred - then I guess anything is possible.
 

Atomicfrog

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Seems like the quickest way to achieve air superiority and just win etc is to use stealth strike/bombers to decapitate civilian/military leadership, air fields, utilities, gov institution, air defenses, oil/gas storage ...
You can also throw waves of unmanned obsolete aircraft or small uav with luneburg lens before your frontline fighter. AA missiles stockpiles will be depleted so fast that it will be a piece of cake. The US tried it with 5 old Firebee drones launching chaft over Bagdad in the first gulf war at the stard of the bombing campaign. The Iraki shot at them non-stop and the Tomahawk passed untouched... J-20 controlling some drones could do the trick easy.
 

Atomicfrog

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You can also throw waves of unmanned obsolete aircraft or small uav with luneburg lens before your frontline fighter. AA missiles stockpiles will be depleted so fast that it will be a piece of cake. The US tried it with 5 old Firebee drones launching chaft over Bagdad in the first gulf war at the stard of the bombing campaign. The Iraki shot at them non-stop and the Tomahawk passed untouched... J-20 controlling some drones could do the trick easy.
Sorry it was in 2003 !
 

Bltizo

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@Bltizo The problem is on what timeline will American 6th gens be ready? The American 6th gens seem oriented at extreme stealth and likely laser capability. If American 6th gens see mass production in the early 2030s with LRIP in the late 2020s, China will want better 5th gens to minimize the 6th generation advantage. NGAD, for instance, reputedly took its first flight this year, and if it's following a F-35 / J-20-type production schedule, you'll see mass production in the early 2030s.

From rumors given, it seems to be a XLO platform with possible lasers, which is still counterable by lasers + a micromissile set-up.

Moreover, this is WHY Chengdu seems to be talking about a strike J-20. An air superiority platform like the the F-22 or J-20 ends up getting relegated to an interceptor role once it's obsolete, A strike J-20, on the other hand, continues to be useful for strike even when it's no longer guaranteed to be effect in an air superiority role. The F-15, notably, had a good after-life as a strike fighter in its strike incarnations.
I don't fundamentally have an issue with the idea of a strike variant J-20 if it doesn't compromise the strike role of other stealthy platforms (whether it's H-20, or perhaps a JH-XX airframe if it emerges).

Minimizing the opfor's 6th gen advantage could also be achieved by accelerating your own 6th gen development and procurement.



My point in talking about 6th generation fighters was only to illustrate my opinion that the PLA 5th generation fleet procurement likely won't be bigger than that of the regional 5th gen fleet of its adversaries.
 

Bltizo

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Any twin seat J-20 would make me lose some (a lot of) faith in its computing and sensor fusion. When is a second pilot ever necessary for a stealth fighter tasked with exploiting its VLO mainly for air superiority? J-20 doesn't look like it's a good low altitude, low speed strike aircraft. Unless that second pilot is helping the control of autonomously directed drones, any requirement for one should be easily resolved with computing.
I did write an article about this last month actually.

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In short, the answer is basically that no matter how much automation or computing power you have, the human is still the limiting factor in choosing what to focus on and what priorities and roles and decisions are made.
A single seat J-20 might be able to do the A2A role and the battle management role both well individually, but doing both at the same time might be more difficult. A twin seat J-20 otoh can do both the A2A role and the battle management role both at a hundred percent.
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
Re: stannislas: I'm talking 2027 timeframe, by which laser technology could have come a long way. If the PLAAF goes with the laser pod approach, we might be looking at a baseline of 4 km range (linear scaling).
Well, you probably haven't realized the impact of technology involved, let me put this way, next-gen energy storage is regarded as the technology that might trigger the next industrial revolution. If us human could reach such a high energy density, we could easily put on a cyber brain and turn us into cyborg/android or whatever, in comparison, laser air defense is child play.

So, no I don't see any hard-kill energy directional weapon be practical on any aircraft, not J-20, not F-35 by 2027, or even not a 6th-gen fighter by 2050 if there is no groundbreaking innovation happened.

As for the F-22, the F-22 can carry the same missile payload as an F-35, despite costing a lot more. The J-20 can likewise carry the same missile payload as an F-35, but it's still a heavier platform at the very least and likely a more expensive platform, especially if the RMB continues to appreciate (around 5% so far this year).
yes, but this has nothing to do with or without the "micromissle", J-20 and F-22/F-35 are in the "price exchange" regardless of the "micromissle". The solution should be something like increasing production so J-20 got cheap, not put on more fancy toys to make everything more expensive.
 

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