J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Deleted member 13312]

F-35 is optimized for the subsonic regime, which is where most of dogfights happen.

Now that is something that is hard to believe, considering that LM had specfically emphasized that the F-35 will have little need of dogfighting in all of it's marketing ads due to it's advanced radar and stealth features. Also, lets also remember the infamous F-16 vs F-35 duel in which the F-16 consistently outperform the F-35 in terms of dogfighting as well.
That the F-35 is "optimized" for subsonic regime is something that I will call bull upon, as every evidence points to the opposite direction.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

J20 showed that although its a 5th generation stealth aircraft it can still pull like a 4th generation aircraft

meaning it can still engage in a dog fight

F35 has been plagued with dog fight rumours, many reports say that it struggles against F16 and F15 in WVR

basically if F35 has to dog fight pilot has done something wrong

J20 seems to excel in both areas even although its 5th generation, good move

But J10B TVC showed how bad ass it really is

Personally I have always find the need of dogfighting capabilities to be just as exaggerated as stealth. It is still a necessary but not the sole defining feature of a fighter. All 5th gen fighters can pull like a 4th gen, the differences is in energy retention and turn circles. With the latter becoming an increasingly doubtful capability as WVR missiles are becoming capable of >90 degree fire range.
And you are right, if F-35 has to dogfight that means the pilot has done something wrong, mostly by failing to fully appreciate the complexities of integrated modern aerial warfare. On a similar note, a J-20 pilot who puts himself in a dogfight situation would also had fail to exploit the full advantages of his or her plane while exposing one of it's few true weaknesses, a lack of WVR missiles just like the F-35.
Dogfighting can take alot of forms, not just the simple turn and burn that we often associate with it. Energy fighting and boom and zoom tactics are also part of the regime.

 

[siegecrossbow]

On a similar note, a J-20 pilot who puts himself in a dogfight situation would also had fail to exploit the full advantages of his or her plane while exposing one of it's few true weaknesses, a lack of WVR missiles just like the F-35.

The J-20 has dedicated side bays for PL-10, a WVR missile.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

The J-20 has dedicated side bays for PL-15, a WVR missile.

A missile that has a potential range of 300km hardly counts as a WVR missile, if we go by that definition then the F-35's AIM-120 also fits the bill with an even smaller range of 120km.
Plus where are these so called "side bays" you talk about. The only side bays which are consistently identified are those containing the PL-10, a much smaller missile.
2x PL-10s figures in just like 2x AIM-9X that the F-35 carries.

 

[Blitzo]

while exposing one of it's few true weaknesses, a lack of WVR missiles just like the F-35.

I am very confused by this. It is likely an error, but it is such a basic error that I'm confused.

We all know J-20 has two PL-10s, including yourself, as your post #4055 states.

The J-20 has dedicated side bays for PL-15, a WVR missile.

You mean PL-10.

 

[latenlazy]

A missile that has a potential range of 300km hardly counts as a WVR missile, if we go by that definition then the F-35's AIM-120 also fits the bill with an even smaller range of 120km.
Plus where are these so called "side bays" you talk about. The only side bays which are consistently identified are those containing the PL-10, a much smaller missile.

I think he meant PL-10.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

I am very confused by this. It is likely an error, but it is such a basic error that I'm confused.

We all know J-20 has two PL-10s, including yourself, as your post #4055 states.

When I say "lack off", I meant "lack of a reasonable number". I know full well that the J-20 has 2x PL-10 missiles. But 2 missiles is just a bare adequate, an archaic notion that is brought over from the 1990s whereby modern air combat are fought in very lopsided settings. Cold War period fighters often carry up to 4 WVR missiles even during peacetime.
So 5th gen fighters like the J-20, F-35 and F-22 are particular vulnerable to running out of the proverbial arrow in the quiver if they find themselves in a WVR combat.

 

[Blitzo]

Plus where are these so called "side bays" you talk about. The only side bays which are consistently identified are those containing the PL-10, a much smaller missile.
2x PL-10s figures in just like 2x AIM-9X that the F-35 carries.

Hold up.

Your previous post #4053 said "On a similar note, a J-20 pilot who puts himself in a dogfight situation would also had fail to exploit the full advantages of his or her plane while exposing one of it's few true weaknesses, a lack of WVR missiles just like the F-35."
So you were saying you believed J-20 cannot carry WVR missiles, just like how F-35 cannot carry WVR missiles.

But now you are saying J-20 can carry two PL-10s (which is correct), and saying that F-35 can also carry two AIM-9X??

But the second part of that is incorrect, because F-35 is unable to carry AIM-9X internally (no current plans to integrate AIM-9X into F-35s weapons bays yet), whereas J-20 can carry PL-10s internally and was designed from the outset to be capable of carrying two PL-10s in dedicated side bays.


..... so based on all of this, going by your previous logic, then we should agree that J-20 does not have that particular weakness of "a lack of WVR missiles" whereas F-35 does have that weakness.

 

[siegecrossbow]

A missile that has a potential range of 300km hardly counts as a WVR missile, if we go by that definition then the F-35's AIM-120 also fits the bill with an even smaller range of 120km.
Plus where are these so called "side bays" you talk about. The only side bays which are consistently identified are those containing the PL-10, a much smaller missile.
2x PL-10s figures in just like 2x AIM-9X that the F-35 carries.

I've miswrote PL-10 as PL-15.

My point is that while the F-35 could carry two AIM-9Xs, it can't store them internally until they've integrated lock after launch due to the way the weapons bay is configured.

 

[Blitzo]

When I say "lack off", I meant "lack of a reasonable number". I know full well that the J-20 has 2x PL-10 missiles. But 2 missiles is just a bare adequate, an archaic notion that is brought over from the 1990s whereby modern air combat are fought in very lopsided settings. Cold War period fighters often carry up to 4 WVR missiles even during peacetime.
So 5th gen fighters like the J-20, F-35 and F-22 are particular vulnerable to running out of the proverbial arrow in the quiver if they find themselves in a WVR combat.

In other words, you are saying that F-22 faces the same degree of "disadvantage" in terms of WVR missiles that J-20 does, because both aircraft are only capable of carrying two WVR missiles?
After all, you would have to be internally consistent with that logic.

I would also like to again add that F-35 does not have the ability to carry AIM-9Xs internally.