J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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SDWatcher

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I suppose these development such as the extensive coordination of fighters with counterstealth assets, is part of a broader trend as announced in the 2015 white paper "China's Military Strategy", where "aim at building an informationized military and winning informationized wars" is a major theme of the white paper.

"In line with the strategic requirement of building air-space capabilities and conducting offensive and defensive operations, the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) will endeavor to shift its focus from territorial air defense to both defense and offense, and build an air-space defense force structure that can meet the requirements of informationized operations. The PLAAF will boost its capabilities for strategic early warning, air strike, air and missile defense, information countermeasures, airborne operations, strategic projection and comprehensive support."

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The exercise is apparently following-through with the directives as portrayed in the white paper.
 

Blitzo

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Divine Eagle and whatever may evolve from it could turn out to be one of the most significant and transformative technologies most people (beltway military “experts” included here) aren’t paying attention to right now. That sort of technology could fundamentally alter aerial warfare in ways even more profound than stealth fighters. The full potential of this technology would be like putting up an entire IADS in the sky, a sensor wall in the air achieving total area denial in a forward projected airspace.

I suspect part of the reason is because Divine Eagle is quite closely guarded and it just isn't as shiny as other systems. If/when it starts to enter service I suspect we may start to see a change in tune.
But despite that I feel like, some of the more unique Chinese drone systems like Divine Eagle, EA-03 etc aren't given as much coverage as their exported MALE UAVs.


Absolutely. There are a lot of spurious signals we have to untangle and parse here, but I’m reaching a point where I wouldn’t be surprised if we see the PLAAF also pick up the J-31. This is now something on my personal list of things to watch for, specifically because of these stories we’re now hearing about the J-20’s performance.

Yes, it is on my list as well. Though I'm surprised they're taking so long to make a decision.



Criticizing me on rigour is entirely fair here. This is more a gut feeling right now on my part. To reiterate (sorry if I’m being repetitive!), I’m just making some noise because it’s something I feel like we should start giving more thought and attention to as we watch the J-20 and its usage in the PLAAF mature and evolve. That’s really all I wanted to get at.

For the record I wouldn't be surprised if your gut feeling ends up being correct. Considering how transformative the F-22 was to the USAF even from what we could see externally, the J-20 is likely to have at least the same effect for the PLAAF.
 

AndrewS

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If I look at the notional cost of a Divine Eagle Hale UAV, I don't expect it to be inexpensive because of the cost of high performance AESA UHF modules.
I think they would be useful, but a wall of them as an airborne IADS is a stretch. Plus whilst the Divine Eagle may operate at high altitude, I think they would still be in range of specialised AAMs.

On the other hand, a YuanMeng near space airship would definitely be out of range of air-to-air missiles carried by fighter aircraft.
And its much greater operating altitude would have the advantage of a better top-down look at stealth aircraft.

And theoretically, an airship with solar panels and lithium batteries could be largely constructed from commercial technology, and therefore could be a lot cheaper than an aircraft.
 
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broadsword

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If I look at the notional cost of a Divine Eagle Hale UAV, I don't expect it to be inexpensive because of the cost of high performance AESA UHF modules.
I think they would be useful, but a wall of them as an airborne IADS is a stretch. Plus whilst the Divine Eagle may operate at high altitude, I think they would still be in range of specialised AAMs.

On the other hand, a YuanMeng near space airship would definitely be out of range of air-to-air missiles carried by fighter aircraft.
And its much greater operating altitude would have the advantage of a better top-down look at stealth aircraft.

And theoretically, an airship with solar panels and lithium batteries could be largely constructed from commercial technology, and therefore could be a lot cheaper than an aircraft.

What is the operating altitude of YuanMeng? AMRAAM-ER
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(85,000 feet)
 

AndrewS

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I suppose these development such as the extensive coordination of fighters with counterstealth assets, is part of a broader trend as announced in the 2015 white paper "China's Military Strategy", where "aim at building an informationized military and winning informationized wars" is a major theme of the white paper.

"In line with the strategic requirement of building air-space capabilities and conducting offensive and defensive operations, the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) will endeavor to shift its focus from territorial air defense to both defense and offense, and build an air-space defense force structure that can meet the requirements of informationized operations. The PLAAF will boost its capabilities for strategic early warning, air strike, air and missile defense, information countermeasures, airborne operations, strategic projection and comprehensive support."

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The exercise is apparently following-through with the directives as portrayed in the white paper.

When I look at it, the best counterstealth strategy for China is:

Eg. For cheap missile strikes on airbases, which destroys opposing stealth fighters on the ground before they can take off.
J-20s to concentrate on attacking expensive tanker aircraft in the waters of the Pacific, so that opposing stealth fighters don't have enough fuel to reach China.
 

Blitzo

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If I look at the notional cost of a Divine Eagle Hale UAV, I don't expect it to be inexpensive because of the cost of high performance AESA UHF modules.
I think they would be useful, but a wall of them as an airborne IADS is a stretch. Plus whilst the Divine Eagle may operate at high altitude, I think they would still be in range of specialised AAMs.

Well, cost is relative. For example, how much would a mass produced Divine Eagle cost vs a KJ-500, when considering the additional costs of the onboard personnel, consoles, and associated life support systems on the latter? A third? A quarter?

Obviously an AEWC drone would not be cheap but it would be more expendable and allow one to deploy them in a manner different to traditional manned AEWC in an environment facing stealthy aircraft.

Calling such a network an airborne IADS obviously isnt' accurate, but rather think of it more as a forward deployed, networked, and dynamic radar picket that operates at the similar "front line" as fighter aircraft do. Against a high intensity foe with stealth fighters, it would be accepted that a certain proportion of the AEWC drone picket would be destroyed, but not before they are able to offer their services to friendly stealth fighters to deal disproportionately heavier damage against opposing stealth fighter formations that lack an AEWC picket.

The way I see it, in the near future, the results of stealth fighter vs stealth fighter combat will depend on having a greater number of sensors (assuming each side's sensor quality is similar) that can be brought to bear to support friendly stealth fighters to enable the traditional first look first shoot advantage that one seeks to attain in all air combat.
Traditionally, AEW&C have had powerful sensors but they are too big and too few and too expensive to be brought near the "front lines" of air to air combat in a stealth vs stealth scenario. The AEWC drone solution would be to put the sensors as powerful or nearly as powerful onto unmanned platforms with relatively long endurance with a degree of autonomy and advanced networking such that much of their data can be directly used by friendly fighters operating on the "front lines" (though possibly with a manned AEW&C or ISR plane monitoring the AEWC drone many 100s of km behind). Such drones would be more numerous, probably a good fraction cheaper, and more importantly they would be unmanned, meaning a more satisfactory number of them could be deployed in a forward manner, but they would also suffer some losses yet still retain a degree of effectiveness -- and most importantly they don't have a dozen humans onboard that will be killed once it is shot down.



On the other hand, a YuanMeng near space airship would definitely be out of range of air-to-air missiles carried by fighter aircraft.
And its much greater operating altitude would have the advantage of a better top-down look at stealth aircraft.

And theoretically, an airship with solar panels and lithium batteries could be largely constructed from commercial technology, and therefore could be a lot cheaper than an aircraft.

Airships could certainly have a role to play in future, with the potential for long endurance and radar horizon ranges given their altitude.

But I'm not sure if their altitude would make them particularly less vulnerable to A2A missiles of the near future given airships would be fairly large RCS targets that would also likely be slower than jet powered HALE UAVs making them less able to change flight paths in response to detected threats. Of course, I'm not suggesting an airship or a HALE UAV would be expected to dodge missiles, but an AEWC airship fleet would be somewhat less dynamic than a fixed wing HALE AEWC drone fleet when considering the previous conops of deploying them in a forward position. I can definitely see a role for airships to have long endurance AEWC coverage for IADS purposes for a fixed area, like a picket of such airships performing national air defence and air defence for bases, ports, etc.

I'm also not convinced if an airship would be much cheaper than a HALE UAV -- if your argument against an AEW&C drone is the cost of the radar, it would likely have a similar cost in that regard.
 

Blitzo

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When I look at it, the best counterstealth strategy for China is:

Eg. For cheap missile strikes on airbases, which destroys opposing stealth fighters on the ground before they can take off.
J-20s to concentrate on attacking expensive tanker aircraft in the waters of the Pacific, so that opposing stealth fighters don't have enough fuel to reach China.

To be fair that's probably the best counter-air strategy in general. Destroy opposing aircraft on the ground if possible, and to prevent them from reaching the area of operations as well.

But I imagine the PLA would be thinking of scenarios where either task is insufficient to thin opposing stealth fighters to an acceptable degree -- or, they are thinking of situations where they may have to do air to air combat at greater distances from the Chinese mainland over the ocean, in turn meaning it would be closer to opfor air bases meaning demands for air refuelling for the opfor are also reduced, ultimately meaning a greater number of stealth fighters would be able to reach the area of operations.


After all there is a reason why US combat air still keep their own air to air capabilities at the leading edge considering the US military certainly has the strike and the ISR to destroy many nation's air forces by striking them on the ground. One reason of course is so of the few opfor aircraft that manage to get into the air, they would get easily swatted down by overwhelming air superiority.

For the PLA, they would of course like to strike opposing stealth fighters while they're on the ground and supporting tankers to prevent them from reaching the combat area, but of those opfor stealth fighters that do get there, you can bet the PLA will want to give their own stealth fighters as many advantages as possible.
 

Air Force Brat

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To be fair that's probably the best counter-air strategy in general. Destroy opposing aircraft on the ground if possible, and to prevent them from reaching the area of operations as well.

But I imagine the PLA would be thinking of scenarios where either task is insufficient to thin opposing stealth fighters to an acceptable degree -- or, they are thinking of situations where they may have to do air to air combat at greater distances from the Chinese mainland over the ocean, in turn meaning it would be closer to opfor air bases meaning demands for air refuelling for the opfor are also reduced, ultimately meaning a greater number of stealth fighters would be able to reach the area of operations.


After all there is a reason why US combat air still keep their own air to air capabilities at the leading edge considering the US military certainly has the strike and the ISR to destroy many nation's air forces by striking them on the ground. One reason of course is so of the few opfor aircraft that manage to get into the air, they would get easily swatted down by overwhelming air superiority.

For the PLA, they would of course like to strike opposing stealth fighters while they're on the ground and supporting tankers to prevent them from reaching the combat area, but of those opfor stealth fighters that do get there, you can bet the PLA will want to give their own stealth fighters as many advantages as possible.

I rather doubt the US Military will cooperate with this little scenario as you have wisely ascertained,,, but we are also rather far afield here, the fact that China is simulating an F-22 two ship attacking Chinese forces?? well, that ain't to likely either, LOL

So lets get back to the J-20? the first question is how were those J-11's/J-10s able to get a LOCK on those girls, where they running the Luneberg Lense? or is there a "chink" in their armor? lots of loose ends here......
 

AndrewS

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I rather doubt the US Military will cooperate with this little scenario as you have wisely ascertained,,, but we are also rather far afield here, the fact that China is simulating an F-22 two ship attacking Chinese forces?? well, that ain't to likely either, LOL

So lets get back to the J-20? the first question is how were those J-11's/J-10s able to get a LOCK on those girls, where they running the Luneberg Lense? or is there a "chink" in their armor? lots of loose ends here......

My guess is the J-20 was tracked via IRST.
 
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