J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[siegecrossbow]

What the heck?! The kills were with Lunberg lenses? And no IR missiles? Thats insane! J-20 sounds seriously over-powered in that case.

By the way was that a typo or were there 2x AWACS (1x KJ-500 & 1x KJ-200)? And any idea what the opposing fighters were?

It was a typo! My bad.

Keep in mind that the J-20 was flying at a low altitude so that the bottom part of the plane (with the Lunberg lens) was not visible to the AWACs/fighter escorts. I felt that it was a loop-hole abuse on the part of the J-20 pilot.

As for not carrying WVR missiles... There is speculation that the PLAAF was trying to use the J-20 to emulate F-35s which, as of 2018, can't carry IR missiles internally. In either case it is a major wakeup call for some of the more naive strategists in China who believe that 4/4.5th generation fighters can effectively counter fifth generation fighters like the F-22 and F-35. I think future PLAAF procurement will reflect the lessons learned within these exercises.

 

[Pmichael]

Once the J-20 gets found by a radar. The J-11 should actually enjoy a kinetic advantage over the J-20 which should provide them the edge in air-to-air engagements.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Once the J-20 gets found by a radar. The J-11 should actually enjoy a kinetic advantage over the J-20 which should provide them the edge in air-to-air engagements.

I'm not so sure that's true?? and why would you suppose that,, the J-11 is no doubt very agile, but the J-20 was designed with relaxed stability, and the ability to "tangle" with a very advanced OPFOR??

not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that the J-20 should be pretty close in agility, with increased situational awareness over the J-11B.....

however, once you're picked up as a target, at close range, you're probably in deep do-do!

 

[siegecrossbow]

Once the J-20 gets found by a radar. The J-11 should actually enjoy a kinetic advantage over the J-20 which should provide them the edge in air-to-air engagements.

I don't know where you got the J-11 from since a 4.5th generation fighter delivered the kill, which would imply that either a J-10B/C or a J-16 made the kill.

As for kinematic performance, here is what the same author has to say about the J-20's maneuverability even when encumbered by AL-31 engines.

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先进的气动布局，让该机不开加力达到音速，超音速机动性能超越所有三代机，同时亚音速下，稳定盘旋率打平了“战斗机黑手党”最爱的F-16A（开个玩笑：歼-20堪称最强机炮格斗四代机，虽然它目前没有装炮）；先进的飞控系统，带来强大的大迎角控制性能，能在接近失速状态下做出匪夷所思的机动动作；

Due to its advanced aerodynamics configuration, [the J-20] can reach supersonic speeds without engaging its afterburners and has superior supersonic maneuverability than all 4th generation fighters. In the subsonic regime, it has a sustained rate of turn similar to that of the F-16A (the author joked that the J-20 is the best fifth generation "gun fighter" despite not carrying a cannon). Advanced flight control system endows [the J-20] with powerful high AOA controllability and allows it to perform unimaginable maneuvers under near-stall conditions.

 

[Jiang ZeminFanboy]

If its true, no reason to produce more j11B, even starting production of j11D is questionable. Maybe only for patrol, just for what the su35 has been bought.

China needs to ramp up J20 and J16 production to counter the F35 and F22 duo.
Some pdf members are talking that production right now is close to 40. For me it is a bullshit.
We haven't seen any evidence of such high production, i wouldnt be surprised if the production in 2018 ended at 6 to 12.

 

[Pmichael]

I don't seriously believe that source, which reads rather fanboyish. Best turn-fighter, instantaneous turn-rates which are rather uncommon for delta-canard aircraft, RCS on the same level as the F-22 .

Once a J-20 get detected and tracked by an AWAC, the fighters would be able to choice to pick the best place and angle to engage the J-20, while it wouldn't even need to follow the J-20 to provide necessary guidiance until the missiles pick up the J-20.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I don't seriously believe that source, which reads rather fanboyish. Best turn-fighter, instantaneous turn-rates which are rather uncommon for delta-canard aircraft, RCS on the same level as the F-22 .

Once a J-20 get detected and tracked by an AWAC, the fighters would be able to choice to pick the best place and angle to engage the J-20, while it wouldn't even need to follow the J-20 to provide necessary guidiance until the missiles pick up the J-20.

Well you can't pick cherry pick your source since the report of the AWAC picking up the J-20 came from the same one that stated it had a sustained turn rate similar to that of the F-16A.

 

[kurutoga]

The same story talked about a few other things that are worth mentioning:

• Development of J20 is still on-going, especially advanced sensor and software. The writer hinted (he talked directly to the development team) two major subsystems that are not yet ready, I assume one of them is helmet-mounted targeting system
• Production of pre-WS15 version J20 has a bottleneck, the parts using some new materials can not enter full production speed before the factory can finish reconfiguration
• The current copy of J20 can already serve the "information node" role, being the collector of data, integrator of info, and command center during fights
• In the simulation fight, one J20 was shot down after the depletion of missiles, then it had to turn back and run away. Does this mean the backward stealth is the issue causing the loss?
• Only jets equipped with AESA radars were able to detect J20 at close range. The other jets were all jammed by J20's radar and cannot function
• Looks like the air force is very happy with J20
• Air force realized the importance of AESA radars (anti-jamming)
• An average PLAAF pilot + Su35 = The best PLAAF Golden Helmet pilot + J11B (I assume)

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

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this website is Guancha. It's reliability is unknown to me. Either the writer knows something or he is just writing a novel

• Pair of J-20 vs a number of other jets plus KJ500
  • result: one J-20 was shot down, KJ500 and a few jets were shot down by J20
• J-20, J-16, vs a whole lot of jets plus ground forces
  • result: one J-16 was shot down

5th generation fighters are just absolute monsters. The jump in capability even without the WS-15 justifies significantly ramping up J-20 production immediately.

In the simulation fight, one J20 was shot down after the depletion of missiles, then it had to turn back and run away. Does this mean the backward stealth is the issue causing the loss?

Maybe so. The lack of stealth shaping on the nozzles is really problematic. Do you know if the jets in the exercises were using serrated nozzles like on 2021?

Keep in mind that the J-20 was flying at a low altitude so that the bottom part of the plane (with the Lunberg lens) was not visible to the AWACs/fighter escorts. I felt that it was a loop-hole abuse on the part of the J-20 pilot.

What's the point of engaging in this exercise with the J-20's wearing lenses?

In the subsonic regime, it has a sustained rate of turn similar to that of the F-16A (the author joked that the J-20 is the best fifth generation "gun fighter" despite not carrying a cannon)

This also seems problematic. Has it been confirmed that the J-20 has no gunport?

 

[SinoSoldier]

I'm surprised that the J-20 has no gun. Is this temporary or does this version not have an emplacement for it in the first place?