J-15 carrier-borne fighter thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
It is sad to see the Soviet Union go but suddenly the long coveted technology is available due to break up. China save itself 20 if not more years of developing Carrier program.Not to mention billion of Dollar. Here is very interesting record of how China get hold of SU 10 K-7 the predecessor of J 15. From Red Samovar
There is no doubt China owe Soviet Union a gratitude. The only nation that is willing to help China in providing the foundation of her Aerospace industry. Mind you not out of goodness of the heart rather than necessity
T10K, Su-33, Ukraine and China
Internet is a great place, you can read everything and its opposite and generally do not even bother to check if the facts read are verified and / or credible. The history of T10K and China is symptomatic of this situation.
Let's go back a little.
In the early 1990s, China no longer hides its military intentions and is seeking access to the high seas. If the intention is present, technical and scientific capacity is not yet available. This is why China will first try to get hold of the aircraft carrier 1143.6 Varyag . The latter, abandoned in Ukraine while it was completed at 65%, and out of financial reach for the new Russia is offered for sale for the new Ukrainian state. After contact with India and China, the price demanded by the Ukrainian authorities was obviously exorbitant, no one wanted this ship.
The aircraft carrier 1143.6 Varyag when towed to China. [email protected]
A few years later the Varyag was auctioned off and sold for USD 20 million in 1998 to a company registered in Macau and owned by a Chinese businessman who wanted to turn it into a hotel and casino. This sale, particularly incredible at every level, saw the ship go round the world and end up in the hands of the Chinese Navy. Why and how, this is a very fun topic that has no place here.
However, during this sale, the buyer also acquired 8 trucks (!!!) of documents related to aircraft carriers, catapults, embedded systems, etc ... all acquired at very democratic prices from Of Ukrainians in trouble of foreign currencies ...
The T10K-7 shortly after its commissioning. [email protected]
When it became evident that China was not contemplating turning the Varyag into a casino but re-employing it for military purposes, Russia jumped at the opportunity to offer for sale a batch of modernized Su-33 and Su-27KUB In order to equip the future ship.
China, interested in negotiations with the Russian and Sukhoi authorities, seemed to be struggling with the amount requested and certain technical aspects of the proposed aircraft. Starting with the idea of acquiring two "evaluation" aircraft, the Russians were pushing for the sale of a batch of 50 new aircraft to reopen the production line at KnAAZ.
The 2004 Russian proposal was divided into two parts: a first batch of 14 Su-33s, allowing the Chinese to train and control the aircraft before a second batch of 36 Su-33s were "modernized" with Performance much better than the Su-33, part of the equipment developed for the Su-30MK2 being taken over and installed in the Su-33 "enhanced".
Photo allowing to see a team of Chinese specialists (?) Posing the T10K-7. Photo@?
And this is where chance (or the conjunction of the stars?) Will strike ... Following the discovery "by chance" of two devices left in Ukraine: the Chinese will change their guns. Abandonment of the proposed purchase of Su-33 and Su-27KUB and acquisition of the two aircraft present in Ukraine by China on 26 August 2004.
But what is it concrete? Remember, we talked in the long list of T10K prototypes of the existence of a prototype abandoned in Ukraine after the fall of the USSR following the technical impossibility of transferring it to Russia. This prototype numbered T10K-7 was therefore abandoned on site with the prototype T10-3 (Flanker A) used for the landing and take-off tests at Saki.
The same team as above, seen in front of the T10K-7. Photo@?
The two planes, in poor condition due to their storage in the open air for more than 10 years, will be summarily revised and transferred discreetly in China. They will be disassembled in their entirety and will be used to create the Shenyang J-15 on the basis of reverse engineering. The Chinese had just found an easy and inexpensive way to have a first embedded device and related technological bricks.
The question of the prototype actually resold in China has regularly raised "insider debates" worthy of the Valladolid controversy . The prototype T10K-3 is regularly cited as the device resold to China and not the T10K-7. As we saw earlier, the T10K prototypes have had various fortunes; Some have been lost (T10K-1 and T10K-8), some have been dismantled or stored in museums (T10K-6, T10K-9), some have been used as a parts bank for serial devices, etc. Depending on the source, some quoting without checks, it is either the T10K-3 that was resold in China or the T10K-7.
Worse, some reliable sources do not even distinguish between T10-3 and T10K, yet they are two planes are impossible to be confused!
It is still difficult to confuse a T10 (Flanker A) such as the T10-3 with a T10-K ... Photo @?
Certainly this kind of discussion may seem anecdotal or even comical and this is indeed the case. However, it is thus that "urban legends" are born and that afterwards it becomes impossible to carry out rigorous and serious follow-up work since the sources diverge and the information becomes unverifiable.
The prototypes T10K-3 and T10K-7 were characterized by strong similarities: identical camouflage, absence of Bort number, few photographs of illustration making it possible to clearly distinguish the devices. However, the fate of both aircraft is known and partially documented: the T10K-3 returned to Russia shortly after the fall of the USSR. He carried out a series of test flights before being permanently grounded in August 1994 and will end his life as an organ bank for the other prototypes and series. Its carcass is visible in the company of other carcasses of prototypes at the KnAAPO factory.
The T10K-7 will be abandoned on the Saki base in Ukraine in 1991. The reason is simple: the aircraft suffered a failure on the PNK-10K flight system, which required replacement of a component and testing before Refurbished. The problem was that the component had to come from the country where it was produced: Belarus.
The T10K-7 stored in a museum somewhere in China. Photo@?
In short, with a potential operator (Russia) having no money to repatriate it, a coin vendor (Belarus) only provided after payment "ruby on the nail" and an owner (Ukraine). 'Having no use for the apparatus: the fate of the apparatus was thus sealed. Taking the dust until the rust made its effect seemed to be the only possible future for the latter.
In the end, China's takeover of the T10-3 and T10K-7 enabled them to once again fulfill their initial role of developing an on-board aviation.
But not in the USSR nor in Russia ...
In conclusion
As we have seen, the Su-33 had the misfortune to fall into the wrong place at the wrong time. The program was severely impacted by the disappearance of military budgets related to the Navy and industry; Moreover, the test center of Saki was not in Russia but in a new independent republic which did not especially carry the Russians in his heart ...
The plane also had the misfortune not to be able to benefit from the budgets allowing it to become a real multi-role apparatus. Although in Soviet and then Russian doctrines these aircraft had the task of ensuring the air defense of the fleet: Su-33 still lacked a real air-to-ground capability only to become a credible and effective carrier aircraft.
It is of course obvious that the small number of planes produced as well as the pure and simple abandonment of the training version (Su-27KUB) did not help the Russians to credibilize a variant already losing speed before even Its commissioning.
But it is still interesting to see that China was able to develop a local variant of the aircraft (J-15) on the basis of prototypes bought in Ukraine, to derive a two-seater version (J-15S) And a catapultable version. The Soviets had developed a version catapultable for the ex-future Ulyanovsk however this last, like its vector, was never realized ... This demonstrates nevertheless the quality of the initial design as well as its capacities of evolutions which were never Exploited by the designers.
There is no doubt China owe Soviet Union a gratitude. The only nation that is willing to help China in providing the foundation of her Aerospace industry. Mind you not out of goodness of the heart rather than necessity
T10K, Su-33, Ukraine and China
Internet is a great place, you can read everything and its opposite and generally do not even bother to check if the facts read are verified and / or credible. The history of T10K and China is symptomatic of this situation.
Let's go back a little.
In the early 1990s, China no longer hides its military intentions and is seeking access to the high seas. If the intention is present, technical and scientific capacity is not yet available. This is why China will first try to get hold of the aircraft carrier 1143.6 Varyag . The latter, abandoned in Ukraine while it was completed at 65%, and out of financial reach for the new Russia is offered for sale for the new Ukrainian state. After contact with India and China, the price demanded by the Ukrainian authorities was obviously exorbitant, no one wanted this ship.
The aircraft carrier 1143.6 Varyag when towed to China. [email protected]
A few years later the Varyag was auctioned off and sold for USD 20 million in 1998 to a company registered in Macau and owned by a Chinese businessman who wanted to turn it into a hotel and casino. This sale, particularly incredible at every level, saw the ship go round the world and end up in the hands of the Chinese Navy. Why and how, this is a very fun topic that has no place here.
However, during this sale, the buyer also acquired 8 trucks (!!!) of documents related to aircraft carriers, catapults, embedded systems, etc ... all acquired at very democratic prices from Of Ukrainians in trouble of foreign currencies ...
The T10K-7 shortly after its commissioning. [email protected]
When it became evident that China was not contemplating turning the Varyag into a casino but re-employing it for military purposes, Russia jumped at the opportunity to offer for sale a batch of modernized Su-33 and Su-27KUB In order to equip the future ship.
China, interested in negotiations with the Russian and Sukhoi authorities, seemed to be struggling with the amount requested and certain technical aspects of the proposed aircraft. Starting with the idea of acquiring two "evaluation" aircraft, the Russians were pushing for the sale of a batch of 50 new aircraft to reopen the production line at KnAAZ.
The 2004 Russian proposal was divided into two parts: a first batch of 14 Su-33s, allowing the Chinese to train and control the aircraft before a second batch of 36 Su-33s were "modernized" with Performance much better than the Su-33, part of the equipment developed for the Su-30MK2 being taken over and installed in the Su-33 "enhanced".
Photo allowing to see a team of Chinese specialists (?) Posing the T10K-7. Photo@?
And this is where chance (or the conjunction of the stars?) Will strike ... Following the discovery "by chance" of two devices left in Ukraine: the Chinese will change their guns. Abandonment of the proposed purchase of Su-33 and Su-27KUB and acquisition of the two aircraft present in Ukraine by China on 26 August 2004.
But what is it concrete? Remember, we talked in the long list of T10K prototypes of the existence of a prototype abandoned in Ukraine after the fall of the USSR following the technical impossibility of transferring it to Russia. This prototype numbered T10K-7 was therefore abandoned on site with the prototype T10-3 (Flanker A) used for the landing and take-off tests at Saki.
The same team as above, seen in front of the T10K-7. Photo@?
The two planes, in poor condition due to their storage in the open air for more than 10 years, will be summarily revised and transferred discreetly in China. They will be disassembled in their entirety and will be used to create the Shenyang J-15 on the basis of reverse engineering. The Chinese had just found an easy and inexpensive way to have a first embedded device and related technological bricks.
The question of the prototype actually resold in China has regularly raised "insider debates" worthy of the Valladolid controversy . The prototype T10K-3 is regularly cited as the device resold to China and not the T10K-7. As we saw earlier, the T10K prototypes have had various fortunes; Some have been lost (T10K-1 and T10K-8), some have been dismantled or stored in museums (T10K-6, T10K-9), some have been used as a parts bank for serial devices, etc. Depending on the source, some quoting without checks, it is either the T10K-3 that was resold in China or the T10K-7.
Worse, some reliable sources do not even distinguish between T10-3 and T10K, yet they are two planes are impossible to be confused!
It is still difficult to confuse a T10 (Flanker A) such as the T10-3 with a T10-K ... Photo @?
Certainly this kind of discussion may seem anecdotal or even comical and this is indeed the case. However, it is thus that "urban legends" are born and that afterwards it becomes impossible to carry out rigorous and serious follow-up work since the sources diverge and the information becomes unverifiable.
The prototypes T10K-3 and T10K-7 were characterized by strong similarities: identical camouflage, absence of Bort number, few photographs of illustration making it possible to clearly distinguish the devices. However, the fate of both aircraft is known and partially documented: the T10K-3 returned to Russia shortly after the fall of the USSR. He carried out a series of test flights before being permanently grounded in August 1994 and will end his life as an organ bank for the other prototypes and series. Its carcass is visible in the company of other carcasses of prototypes at the KnAAPO factory.
The T10K-7 will be abandoned on the Saki base in Ukraine in 1991. The reason is simple: the aircraft suffered a failure on the PNK-10K flight system, which required replacement of a component and testing before Refurbished. The problem was that the component had to come from the country where it was produced: Belarus.
The T10K-7 stored in a museum somewhere in China. Photo@?
In short, with a potential operator (Russia) having no money to repatriate it, a coin vendor (Belarus) only provided after payment "ruby on the nail" and an owner (Ukraine). 'Having no use for the apparatus: the fate of the apparatus was thus sealed. Taking the dust until the rust made its effect seemed to be the only possible future for the latter.
In the end, China's takeover of the T10-3 and T10K-7 enabled them to once again fulfill their initial role of developing an on-board aviation.
But not in the USSR nor in Russia ...
In conclusion
As we have seen, the Su-33 had the misfortune to fall into the wrong place at the wrong time. The program was severely impacted by the disappearance of military budgets related to the Navy and industry; Moreover, the test center of Saki was not in Russia but in a new independent republic which did not especially carry the Russians in his heart ...
The plane also had the misfortune not to be able to benefit from the budgets allowing it to become a real multi-role apparatus. Although in Soviet and then Russian doctrines these aircraft had the task of ensuring the air defense of the fleet: Su-33 still lacked a real air-to-ground capability only to become a credible and effective carrier aircraft.
It is of course obvious that the small number of planes produced as well as the pure and simple abandonment of the training version (Su-27KUB) did not help the Russians to credibilize a variant already losing speed before even Its commissioning.
But it is still interesting to see that China was able to develop a local variant of the aircraft (J-15) on the basis of prototypes bought in Ukraine, to derive a two-seater version (J-15S) And a catapultable version. The Soviets had developed a version catapultable for the ex-future Ulyanovsk however this last, like its vector, was never realized ... This demonstrates nevertheless the quality of the initial design as well as its capacities of evolutions which were never Exploited by the designers.
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EXCELLENT find and article!It is sad to see the Soviet Union go but suddenly the long coveted technology is available due to break up. China save itself 20 if not more years of developing Carrier program.Not to mention billion of Dollar. Here is very interesting record of how China get hold of SU 10 K-7 the predecessor of J 15. From Red Samovar
There is no doubt China owe Soviet Union a gratitude. The only nation that is willing to help China in providing the foundation of her Aerospace industry. Mind you not out of goodness of the heart rather than necessity
T10K, Su-33, Ukraine and China
Internet is a great place, you can read everything and its opposite and generally do not even bother to check if the facts read are verified and / or credible. The history of T10K and China is symptomatic of this situation.
Let's go back a little.
In the early 1990s, China no longer hides its military intentions and is seeking access to the high seas. If the intention is present, technical and scientific capacity is not yet available. This is why China will first try to get hold of the aircraft carrier 1143.6 Varyag . The latter, abandoned in Ukraine while it was completed at 65%, and out of financial reach for the new Russia is offered for sale for the new Ukrainian state. After contact with India and China, the price demanded by the Ukrainian authorities was obviously exorbitant, no one wanted this ship.
The aircraft carrier 1143.6 Varyag when towed to China. [email protected]
A few years later the Varyag was auctioned off and sold for USD 20 million in 1998 to a company registered in Macau and owned by a Chinese businessman who wanted to turn it into a hotel and casino. This sale, particularly incredible at every level, saw the ship go round the world and end up in the hands of the Chinese Navy. Why and how, this is a very fun topic that has no place here.
However, during this sale, the buyer also acquired 8 trucks (!!!) of documents related to aircraft carriers, catapults, embedded systems, etc ... all acquired at very democratic prices from Of Ukrainians in trouble of foreign currencies ...
The T10K-7 shortly after its commissioning. [email protected]
When it became evident that China was not contemplating turning the Varyag into a casino but re-employing it for military purposes, Russia jumped at the opportunity to offer for sale a batch of modernized Su-33 and Su-27KUB In order to equip the future ship.
China, interested in negotiations with the Russian and Sukhoi authorities, seemed to be struggling with the amount requested and certain technical aspects of the proposed aircraft. Starting with the idea of acquiring two "evaluation" aircraft, the Russians were pushing for the sale of a batch of 50 new aircraft to reopen the production line at KnAAZ.
The 2004 Russian proposal was divided into two parts: a first batch of 14 Su-33s, allowing the Chinese to train and control the aircraft before a second batch of 36 Su-33s were "modernized" with Performance much better than the Su-33, part of the equipment developed for the Su-30MK2 being taken over and installed in the Su-33 "enhanced".
Photo allowing to see a team of Chinese specialists (?) Posing the T10K-7. Photo@?
And this is where chance (or the conjunction of the stars?) Will strike ... Following the discovery "by chance" of two devices left in Ukraine: the Chinese will change their guns. Abandonment of the proposed purchase of Su-33 and Su-27KUB and acquisition of the two aircraft present in Ukraine by China on 26 August 2004.
But what is it concrete? Remember, we talked in the long list of T10K prototypes of the existence of a prototype abandoned in Ukraine after the fall of the USSR following the technical impossibility of transferring it to Russia. This prototype numbered T10K-7 was therefore abandoned on site with the prototype T10-3 (Flanker A) used for the landing and take-off tests at Saki.
The same team as above, seen in front of the T10K-7. Photo@?
The two planes, in poor condition due to their storage in the open air for more than 10 years, will be summarily revised and transferred discreetly in China. They will be disassembled in their entirety and will be used to create the Shenyang J-15 on the basis of reverse engineering. The Chinese had just found an easy and inexpensive way to have a first embedded device and related technological bricks.
The question of the prototype actually resold in China has regularly raised "insider debates" worthy of the Valladolid controversy . The prototype T10K-3 is regularly cited as the device resold to China and not the T10K-7. As we saw earlier, the T10K prototypes have had various fortunes; Some have been lost (T10K-1 and T10K-8), some have been dismantled or stored in museums (T10K-6, T10K-9), some have been used as a parts bank for serial devices, etc. Depending on the source, some quoting without checks, it is either the T10K-3 that was resold in China or the T10K-7.
Worse, some reliable sources do not even distinguish between T10-3 and T10K, yet they are two planes are impossible to be confused!
It is still difficult to confuse a T10 (Flanker A) such as the T10-3 with a T10-K ... Photo @?
Certainly this kind of discussion may seem anecdotal or even comical and this is indeed the case. However, it is thus that "urban legends" are born and that afterwards it becomes impossible to carry out rigorous and serious follow-up work since the sources diverge and the information becomes unverifiable.
The prototypes T10K-3 and T10K-7 were characterized by strong similarities: identical camouflage, absence of Bort number, few photographs of illustration making it possible to clearly distinguish the devices. However, the fate of both aircraft is known and partially documented: the T10K-3 returned to Russia shortly after the fall of the USSR. He carried out a series of test flights before being permanently grounded in August 1994 and will end his life as an organ bank for the other prototypes and series. Its carcass is visible in the company of other carcasses of prototypes at the KnAAPO factory.
The T10K-7 will be abandoned on the Saki base in Ukraine in 1991. The reason is simple: the aircraft suffered a failure on the PNK-10K flight system, which required replacement of a component and testing before Refurbished. The problem was that the component had to come from the country where it was produced: Belarus.
The T10K-7 stored in a museum somewhere in China. Photo@?
In short, with a potential operator (Russia) having no money to repatriate it, a coin vendor (Belarus) only provided after payment "ruby on the nail" and an owner (Ukraine). 'Having no use for the apparatus: the fate of the apparatus was thus sealed. Taking the dust until the rust made its effect seemed to be the only possible future for the latter.
In the end, China's takeover of the T10-3 and T10K-7 enabled them to once again fulfill their initial role of developing an on-board aviation.
.
This is what Makes SD so fine.
It is simply amazing to read this back story and realize what the PRC has done with the information tey were able to acquire on the open market from the Ukraine.
As you said, it allowed them to rapidly move forward...and look what they have today!
Two carriers, one of them commissioned and operational with a full air wing. The second being outfitted to go to sea probably next year and by 2020 it will be close to fully operational with its owwn air wing.
Without this information they obtained...who knows how long it would have taken them to get here? Or exactly what "here" would be right now.
As it is, they have two carriers that outside of the US carriers, the French carrier, the Russian carrier...and now the Royal Navy's QE, represent the most potent aircraft carriers available to any other nation.
That pretty darn good for a start.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
As the saying goes, fortune favors the prepared mind.. or similarly, luck is nothing more than opportunity meets preparation.
The availability of the Flanker tech, Varyag etc in the early 90s would've been far less useful had it gone to anywhere else in the world but in the case of China it was the right technology at the right moment in time and they were able to seize it and built upon it to what is PLAN's carrier aviation today in a relatively short amount of time. It was the perfect marriage.
No other country at that time would've found them useful. They were either too antiquated for 1st class blue water navies and for others, they would've been too unprepared, poor or unambitious to realized the potential. China was still quite poor in 1990 but they had great foresight and that made all the difference in the world.
I believe in the next few decades, naval historians will look back in time and realized that the early 90s post breakup USSR world is the exact turning point in history in making PLAN a true blue water navy rivaling the USN.
The availability of the Flanker tech, Varyag etc in the early 90s would've been far less useful had it gone to anywhere else in the world but in the case of China it was the right technology at the right moment in time and they were able to seize it and built upon it to what is PLAN's carrier aviation today in a relatively short amount of time. It was the perfect marriage.
No other country at that time would've found them useful. They were either too antiquated for 1st class blue water navies and for others, they would've been too unprepared, poor or unambitious to realized the potential. China was still quite poor in 1990 but they had great foresight and that made all the difference in the world.
I believe in the next few decades, naval historians will look back in time and realized that the early 90s post breakup USSR world is the exact turning point in history in making PLAN a true blue water navy rivaling the USN.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
High insight gives 20/20 vision
I bet Russian regrets so much not bringing the prototypes home
If they had the Su33 would have brought in billions
I bet Russian regrets so much not bringing the prototypes home
If they had the Su33 would have brought in billions
szbd
Junior Member
Russia actually built Su33 and offered to China
So true. Before Varyag, China had acquired or got its hands on Minsk and Melbourne to study them. As far back as late '80s, China had started to train carrier-based captains selected from PLAN (it was a bit premature, it turned out). A few years ago, when Laoning was commissioned and the country was in the middle of an aircraft carrier craze, I found some large volumes of book series in China on aircraft carriers, with very detailed information covering every aspects of carrier design, operations and combat tactics researched by naval personnel. I was surprised and really impressed. Apparently, China had been looking into these matters for quite some time now and had collected a lot of information. That's very typical of their approach in large, strategic programs: methodical, meticulous and long-term planning.
They did but left one prototype in Ukraine because the flight-control system was faulty and the replacement system was built in Belarus who was now an independent country and didn't obey orders, so they left T-10K-7 in Ukraine. China initially did not know that Ukraine had a prototype so they negotiated with Russia and tolerated her exorbitant prices for Su-33s.... until someone discovered that Ukraine had one prototype remaining. Negotiations with Russia were terminated because China isn't India and the T-10K-7 was subsequently transported to SAC.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
That is an excellent summary Jobjed US make a strategic blunder by not giving the moribund Russian aerospace industry a helping hand after the break up of Soviet Union I remember highly train engineer sell their cloth on the market to survive. subsequently many of them work in China
I guess the neocon just gloating over the demise of soviet union with a book like the end of history etc
China just smart they know it when mana come from heaven and waste no time in grabbing the opportunity. They give the Russian aerospace industry a life boat in return for technology
It is in no way diminish the achievement of Chinese aerospace industry RE is not as easy as some fanboy imagine
It take them close to a decade to RE Mark 48 torpedo
I guess the neocon just gloating over the demise of soviet union with a book like the end of history etc
China just smart they know it when mana come from heaven and waste no time in grabbing the opportunity. They give the Russian aerospace industry a life boat in return for technology
It is in no way diminish the achievement of Chinese aerospace industry RE is not as easy as some fanboy imagine
It take them close to a decade to RE Mark 48 torpedo
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The two eventuals deals for 48 Su-33 and 48 Su-30MKK2/3 was canceled also coz Russians discover the J-11B...