Is a dedicated helicopter-destroyer a feasible idea?

MwRYum

Major
Even amongst established cases of helicopter vs helicopter engagements, they're still of rarity and essentially a last resort when other means were not available - if were not let the air force to deny the sky to enemy helicopters, then to lure the enemy's into friendly ground-based air defense. Even though all attack helicopters have AAMs in their payload options, in practice however they were always dedicated their payload for ground attack missions.

What China really need are the ability to achieve air superiority, and networked ground air defense with redundant tracking-guidance capacities.
 
From perusing reports about ground vs heli combat from both Gulf wars and the former Yugoslavia's breakup, the most modern occurrence of this type of combat, it seems that hitting a heli gunship with ground fire is not too difficult but killing/mission killing it is a challenge.

Is it possible to make AA ammo which hits a heli and/or its weaponry with:

A) sticky gunk or gravel material to mess with the rotor, blades, or air intakes/exhausts?

B) paint to obstruct optics or cockpit view?

C) also paint-like material but to make the target high visibility to the naked eye or any kind of AA weapons targeting?

These types of ammo would probably work well with large diameter AA guns, if the guns themselves can achieve a high hit probability.
 
or you could just use a stinger missle

Well, that goes without saying, except that it might not do the job.

During the Gulf wars a lot of armored helos were hit multiple times by AA and some by MANPADs but were able to continue to carry out their missions or return to base.

Something unconventional which disables or highlights (to other defenders) the chopper may be better at a mission kill or hard kill, or facilitating one. Not to mention an opportunity for capture and reverse engineering.
 

MwRYum

Major
or you could just use a stinger missle

With today's suites of ECM and passive defenses designed into dedicated attack helicopters, MANPADs won't able to bring down outright anything in the class of Apache, though the damage suffered would be enough to make one retreat back to their base, essentially denied enemy an asset for the time being.
 

HKSDU

Junior Member
With today's suites of ECM and passive defenses designed into dedicated attack helicopters, MANPADs won't able to bring down outright anything in the class of Apache, though the damage suffered would be enough to make one retreat back to their base, essentially denied enemy an asset for the time being.
....and their will also be advancements onto anti air missile, and more potent warheads. Putting it out of commission is more troublesome for the enemy than destroying it.
"For every sword there is a shield."
 

MwRYum

Major
....and their will also be advancements onto anti air missile, and more potent warheads. Putting it out of commission is more troublesome for the enemy than destroying it.
"For every sword there is a shield."

However advanced it maybe, the physical limit can't be overcome unless you start to pack anti-matter into that small space for warhead...so if you want a bigger bang, you need to sacrifice on range unless you can have the tracking+guidance parts in a more compact, lightweight package.

So this is what we see in the world's trend of things: MANPADs with better guidance and tracking capabilities, better ECCM capability, easier to use...while attack helicopters focused on system redundancy, system survivability and ease of repair to counter in the event it takes damage.

And lastly, putting it out of commission isn't really an issue unless your maintenance effort is sloppy, and those who can afford attack helicopters have an army to service the machines, and modern attack helicopters (including Mi-24) have field maintenance and modular construction in mind. So unless we talk about core structure failures that field base can't repair, it's just a matter of swap out damaged modules and it'd back in service.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
The best anti-helicopter weapon is your air force fixed wing aircraft, flying at up to Mach 2 with BVR missiles. A fighter jet will out-fly and out-shoot attack helocopters by a wide margain.

Attack helicopters are more useful in hitting enemy armor and other ground-targets. The short-range AAM's they carry are just for last-ditch self defense. Against an enemy fighter jet with long-range missiles, you're better off taking evasive action.

Actually, such fast aircraft are a pretty poor choice for going after a low flying helicopter. The helo can always out turn the fighter, and if flown slow enough, will not be acquired by a doppler radar of any sort. While that fighter overshoots the helo and goes high in a yo-yo, the helo is rapidly turning and getting lost in the terrain, probably never to be seen again.
From above, they are tough targets for most IR systems, particularly so if there is a cold air mixing system in the helo's exhaust system, and the rotor system tends to blow the heat down anyway. Things like the AN/ALQ-144 don't make life any easier for IR systems.
Every year the USAF and USMC fighters have a go at USMC helos out in Yuma and the go fasties often get a rude lesson on the limitations of their mighty fighter jets. They cannot slow down enough to effectively engage helos, and are not well suited for engaging while nap of the earth like a helo is.
A helo's worst enemy is still probably the ZSU-23/4.
A Tucano would be a more dangerous problem for a helo than something like a Flanker.

However advanced it maybe, the physical limit can't be overcome unless you start to pack anti-matter into that small space for warhead...so if you want a bigger bang, you need to sacrifice on range unless you can have the tracking+guidance parts in a more compact, lightweight package.

So this is what we see in the world's trend of things: MANPADs with better guidance and tracking capabilities, better ECCM capability, easier to use...while attack helicopters focused on system redundancy, system survivability and ease of repair to counter in the event it takes damage.

And lastly, putting it out of commission isn't really an issue unless your maintenance effort is sloppy, and those who can afford attack helicopters have an army to service the machines, and modern attack helicopters (including Mi-24) have field maintenance and modular construction in mind. So unless we talk about core structure failures that field base can't repair, it's just a matter of swap out damaged modules and it'd back in service.

Ever see something called Spike? Not the Israeli anti-tank missile, but this?

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Miniaturization of the warhead is not science fiction. One can have the same explosive power with less size and weight using the latest energetic materials.
 
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Culibin777

Just Hatched
Registered Member
From perusing reports about ground vs heli combat from both Gulf wars and the former Yugoslavia's breakup, the most modern occurrence of this type of combat, it seems that hitting a heli gunship with ground fire is not too difficult but killing/mission killing it is a challenge.

Is it possible to make AA ammo which hits a heli and/or its weaponry with:

A) sticky gunk or gravel material to mess with the rotor, blades, or air intakes/exhausts?

B) paint to obstruct optics or cockpit view?

C) also paint-like material but to make the target high visibility to the naked eye or any kind of AA weapons targeting?

These types of ammo would probably work well with large diameter AA guns, if the guns themselves can achieve a high hit probability.
Such weapons as cans of paint or sources of soot, limiting the visibility was not seriously against helicopters.
Paint can not dazzle the helicopter, this is not enough of a hit. Need at least a few hits from all sides. At the same time simply to protect the paint. Glass lenses and cameras can be protected by a transparent plastic film, which is reset after being hit by the paint. Paint can be washed off with water or solvent. Means of protection against paint are cheap and they can quickly equip any helicopter. And paint is not capable of inflicting fatal damage helicopters.
Explosive charge of the same weight as the balloon with paint is much more efficient at the same weight. Helicopter can penetrate armor and simple bloom flying at high speed. It's not expensive, but unlike a helicopter hit by paint, and not complicate the work of the pilot.
The same can be said about Tross constraints of the rotor, the rotor inertia as in armor-piercing projectile. Rotor sever light cables, and heavy solid lines shall weigh not less than ten kilograms. Simple explosives or even a steel bar with the same weight much more efficiently.
Scoring engine metal particles as ineffective and this is easy to protect filters.
Weapons of this kind can not compete with high-grade military weapons calculated to permanently destroy targets.
In order to make a weapon against the helicopters need to update not combat troops, and the media. Use fast, hypersonic missiles for tank guns that could shoot down air targets as anti-aircraft guns. Guided missiles with high accuracy and range of activities such as guided missiles, fired from the barrel, or hypersonic missiles with mid-flight air jet engines.
You can shoot down helicopters and small remote-controlled planes, they fly slowly, but they have high accuracy and is cheap. Portable unmanned aircraft can be further equipped with standard armor, they can carry infantry hiding in the woods or shelters, which greatly complicates the work of helicopters.
Helicopters attack fortified defenses can be brought down by special mines. Helicopters are going to storm at low altitudes, fragmentation mines exploding under the helicopters can be an inexpensive means of protection, a kind of barrage lines.
 

Culibin777

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Actually, such fast aircraft are a pretty poor choice for going after a low flying helicopter. The helo can always out turn the fighter, and if flown slow enough, will not be acquired by a doppler radar of any sort. While that fighter overshoots the helo and goes high in a yo-yo, the helo is rapidly turning and getting lost in the terrain, probably never to be seen again.
From above, they are tough targets for most IR systems, particularly so if there is a cold air mixing system in the helo's exhaust system, and the rotor system tends to blow the heat down anyway. Things like the AN/ALQ-144 don't make life any easier for IR systems.
Every year the USAF and USMC fighters have a go at USMC helos out in Yuma and the go fasties often get a rude lesson on the limitations of their mighty fighter jets. They cannot slow down enough to effectively engage helos, and are not well suited for engaging while nap of the earth like a helo is.
A helo's worst enemy is still probably the ZSU-23/4.
A Tucano would be a more dangerous problem for a helo than something like a Flanker.



Ever see something called Spike? Not the Israeli anti-tank missile, but this?

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Miniaturization of the warhead is not science fiction. One can have the same explosive power with less size and weight using the latest energetic materials.

Supersonic fighters are effective against helicopters, but they are expensive, and few of them.
You can use against helicopters and ground attack aircraft are cheaper. Stormtroopers are military burden is not conceding on weight fighters, and even surpassing them. For attack helicopters, high speed is not needed, the speed and maneuverability of the jet in any case higher than that of the helicopter. Range aircraft missiles in any case exceed the helicopter. This allows the storming as effectively destroy the helicopter without incurring the risk of being shot down.
Fighters are best suited for combat aircraft break defense is particularly important sites, that's their main purpose.
Against helicopters, so it is possible to use light aircraft. They are very cheap, but can carry quite a serious weapon, helicopter missiles air to air - Stinger, Strela, Igla, and the like, heavy machine guns. Unguided missiles, which can also be effective at close range.
The speed of light aircraft are comparable to helicopters - 200, 300, kilometers per hour. But they are much cheaper than helicopters. The helicopter is 25, 30, of millions of dollars, and a light aircraft with 10, 30, of thousands of dollars, as a good bike, or the average car. A thousand times cheaper than a helicopter.
Light aircraft can not carry armor, and weapons against vulnerable helicopters. But they can maneuver better than helicopters leaving from the rockets and shells at a great distance. And their low cost allows you to sacrifice them without regret. One set of missiles for light aircraft is comparable in price to himself. Therefore, attacking helicopters, light aircraft pilots can produce rockets and jump from the aircraft earlier than the helicopter rocket will reach them. Light aircraft also have an advantage against the helicopter with heat-seeking missiles, they are agile and their engines emit little heat.
The cheapness of light aircraft allows them in large quantities, if aircraft will be ten times more than the helicopters, the helicopters will not stand a chance. And the cost of aircraft is much lower. This is quite an effective weapon of the ratio cost - effectiveness, despite the foreign frivolity.
Light aircraft can also support ground forces with air and take part in the storming of the enemy's ground forces, playing the role of a kind - "the Air Corps." Attack of the large number of light aircraft makes impotent any anti-aircraft defenses. Flying up like a flock of mosquitoes, they can destroy anti-aircraft guns and cause serious damage to enemy troops, the loss of a few dozen cars in the massive raid does not play a great value. If a light aircraft will attack with helicopters, they will divert a major fire of the enemy and fight with antiaircraft guns, thereby increasing the survivability of expensive helicopters.
The advantages of light aircraft can carry more, and what they can produce in large quantities in Automotive Technology-based, common in China. The ability to quickly replenish lost in the technique of one of the decisive factors in the long war. A war with China, Blitz Krieg is unlikely to even such a strong country like the U.S..
Since helicopters can combat drones. They are more expensive than light aircraft and have less lifting capacity. But the drones are considered one of the most promising weapons.
Against groups of helicopters can use managed fragmentation bombs, dropped from bombers, from a great height. Such weapons were in service with the Soviet Union, against the likely long-range bombers attack Nato. Guided bombs cheaper rockets, and, unlike missiles they are low altitude flying target does not affect their accuracy.
 
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