If Alexander Invade China
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eecsmaster
Junior Member
question is, can Alex the boy even get there?
Pointblank
Senior Member
He did get to India... and won... but his army was too exhausted to go further. Perhaps a bit of rest would have given his army enough strength to push onwards?
hongkongpride
New Member
Re: If Alexander The Great Reached China
Well of course this scenario is pure hypothesis because after 11 years of virtually non stop fighting, Alexander's men were throughly fed up and refused to march further
but what if:
He had reached the seven of Warring States who would have prevailed, the greatest General the Ancient World has known or one of the Greatest tyrants in history: The First Emperor?
Interesting scenario: Alexander reached India in 326 and fought the battle of Hydaspes in the same year aginst the Indian King Porus, Alexander being 30 in that year. Assuming Alexander rested his men and recruited new troops from Persia and India, he would most likely taken the route through Afghanistan which he was familiar with and probably would have lasted up to 15-20 years-assume the COIN operations against the Afghans were successful and that Alex has never been defeated in history (except by his own men).
Hypothetically, he would have reached what is now called China in about 305BC, popping up around the north of the state of Qin, the modern day Gansu province(taking the Afghan route thru the Khybar Pass).
In 305 BC Qin and Qi were the strongest states before Qi's devastating defeat in 300BC by Gen. Yue Yan of the Yan State, leading to the demise of Qi as a superpower. So if Alexander appeared in 305BC it would be Qin that would face him. I will just list the advantages of each army because it is impossible to decide the victor as neither army fought each other.
Compared to the state of Qin in 305BC, (NOT the Empire/Dynasty)
In tactics and strategy, I would think Alexander to be far superior as he was the inventor/adopter of the flying wedge, hammer and anvil and (flank and roll)ing up the centre strategies as well as relying on combined arms operations that offset his numerical inferiority. In technology, he Macedonian army featured a mobile siege train of catapults, ballistas, mobile hospitals and well as the dreaded phalanx formation and the use of elephants and horse archers from Persia. His men had superb morale, could quickly adapt to different climates and were battle hardened veterans
I am not sure who the First Emperor would send to fight Alexander, but unless he was someone special Alexander would have annihilated his army.
Qin troops had a superiorty in numbers due to conscription, the drawback being somewhat lowered morale, the fear factor due to their bloodthirstiness in executing their prisoners (at the Battle of Changping the Qin massacred 150,000-400,000 captured Zhao soldiers-figures vary.)-although it would not have an impact on the Macedonians as they had never faced the Qin before. Also, the Qin had eighteen-foot long iron pikes and the crossbow-which could punch through any macedonian or even Roman shield-a decisive factor in any engagement.
In an engagement on the rocky, but relatively open terrain of Gansu: The Macedonians would probably use combined arms as usual against the Qin. The Qin army strategy used crossbows to suppress the enemy and then charged with swords, daggers and pikes. The cunning Alexander, based on a study of his his tactics, before the battle would send envoys to the other six states asking for an alliance against the Qin (hézòng, 合縱 "vertically linked")-of which Qi and Chu based on their hate of Qin would most likely join. Thus, the Qin would be forced to fight on three fronts, and Alexander would not have been outnumbered so much, about 50,000 Macedonians+100,000 Persians and Indians vs 250,000 Qin soldiers.
Alex would prob. send his Companion Cavalry and horse archers around the flanks of the Qin army in preparation for either the flying wedge or hammer and anvil and skirmishers to thin out the Qin archers and absorb the crossbow bolts (meat shields
) and march up the phanlanx as well as sending the Elephants charging up. In a close up battle, the Macedonian pikes (sarissa) would be longer than the Qin pikes.
So the decisive factors here are when facing Alex the Great (alex will have fewer men but better equipped on the whole and better motivation): 1. are the Qin soldiers elite or just conscipts and WILL they break when the elephants charge into them?(It is possible to kill or make an elephant go crazy by shooting crossbow bolts at it-but the elephant will run amok in your ranks causing more trouble)
2. Will the Qin crossbows kill enough of the armoured Macedonians in the phalanx before the Macedonian sarissas rip into them?
3. will the Qin be able to hold off the ANNOYING horse archers while dealing with the elephants and phalanx (Qin lost many times to Zhao who were using Xiongnu style horse archers) and the lethal Companion cavalry?
4.Can the Qin general hold off Alexander or find a way to neutralize his crazy combined arms operations? eg. using geography-fighting where he could use his numbers to his advantage
5.Can Qin unite the other six states against Alex or will the hatred of Chu and Qi cause them to ally with Alex instead (although the irony is the'll probably be next-similar to what happened in the Warring States period when some stupid kings allied with Qin 連橫liánhéng, "horizontally linked" such as Yan and ended up regretting it afterwards-watch "the Emperor and the Assassin" with Gong Li to find out=)
Enough talking for me,
I'll let you guys decide on who wins
Cheers
Well of course this scenario is pure hypothesis because after 11 years of virtually non stop fighting, Alexander's men were throughly fed up and refused to march further
but what if:
He had reached the seven of Warring States who would have prevailed, the greatest General the Ancient World has known or one of the Greatest tyrants in history: The First Emperor?
Interesting scenario: Alexander reached India in 326 and fought the battle of Hydaspes in the same year aginst the Indian King Porus, Alexander being 30 in that year. Assuming Alexander rested his men and recruited new troops from Persia and India, he would most likely taken the route through Afghanistan which he was familiar with and probably would have lasted up to 15-20 years-assume the COIN operations against the Afghans were successful and that Alex has never been defeated in history (except by his own men).
Hypothetically, he would have reached what is now called China in about 305BC, popping up around the north of the state of Qin, the modern day Gansu province(taking the Afghan route thru the Khybar Pass).
In 305 BC Qin and Qi were the strongest states before Qi's devastating defeat in 300BC by Gen. Yue Yan of the Yan State, leading to the demise of Qi as a superpower. So if Alexander appeared in 305BC it would be Qin that would face him. I will just list the advantages of each army because it is impossible to decide the victor as neither army fought each other.
Compared to the state of Qin in 305BC, (NOT the Empire/Dynasty)
In tactics and strategy, I would think Alexander to be far superior as he was the inventor/adopter of the flying wedge, hammer and anvil and (flank and roll)ing up the centre strategies as well as relying on combined arms operations that offset his numerical inferiority. In technology, he Macedonian army featured a mobile siege train of catapults, ballistas, mobile hospitals and well as the dreaded phalanx formation and the use of elephants and horse archers from Persia. His men had superb morale, could quickly adapt to different climates and were battle hardened veterans
I am not sure who the First Emperor would send to fight Alexander, but unless he was someone special Alexander would have annihilated his army.
Qin troops had a superiorty in numbers due to conscription, the drawback being somewhat lowered morale, the fear factor due to their bloodthirstiness in executing their prisoners (at the Battle of Changping the Qin massacred 150,000-400,000 captured Zhao soldiers-figures vary.)-although it would not have an impact on the Macedonians as they had never faced the Qin before. Also, the Qin had eighteen-foot long iron pikes and the crossbow-which could punch through any macedonian or even Roman shield-a decisive factor in any engagement.
In an engagement on the rocky, but relatively open terrain of Gansu: The Macedonians would probably use combined arms as usual against the Qin. The Qin army strategy used crossbows to suppress the enemy and then charged with swords, daggers and pikes. The cunning Alexander, based on a study of his his tactics, before the battle would send envoys to the other six states asking for an alliance against the Qin (hézòng, 合縱 "vertically linked")-of which Qi and Chu based on their hate of Qin would most likely join. Thus, the Qin would be forced to fight on three fronts, and Alexander would not have been outnumbered so much, about 50,000 Macedonians+100,000 Persians and Indians vs 250,000 Qin soldiers.
Alex would prob. send his Companion Cavalry and horse archers around the flanks of the Qin army in preparation for either the flying wedge or hammer and anvil and skirmishers to thin out the Qin archers and absorb the crossbow bolts (meat shields
) and march up the phanlanx as well as sending the Elephants charging up. In a close up battle, the Macedonian pikes (sarissa) would be longer than the Qin pikes.So the decisive factors here are when facing Alex the Great (alex will have fewer men but better equipped on the whole and better motivation): 1. are the Qin soldiers elite or just conscipts and WILL they break when the elephants charge into them?(It is possible to kill or make an elephant go crazy by shooting crossbow bolts at it-but the elephant will run amok in your ranks causing more trouble)
2. Will the Qin crossbows kill enough of the armoured Macedonians in the phalanx before the Macedonian sarissas rip into them?
3. will the Qin be able to hold off the ANNOYING horse archers while dealing with the elephants and phalanx (Qin lost many times to Zhao who were using Xiongnu style horse archers) and the lethal Companion cavalry?
4.Can the Qin general hold off Alexander or find a way to neutralize his crazy combined arms operations? eg. using geography-fighting where he could use his numbers to his advantage
5.Can Qin unite the other six states against Alex or will the hatred of Chu and Qi cause them to ally with Alex instead (although the irony is the'll probably be next-similar to what happened in the Warring States period when some stupid kings allied with Qin 連橫liánhéng, "horizontally linked" such as Yan and ended up regretting it afterwards-watch "the Emperor and the Assassin" with Gong Li to find out=)
Enough talking for me,
I'll let you guys decide on who wins
Cheers
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coolieno99
Junior Member
Alex was supposely killed in India by an Indian archer. He could never have went on to China.
eecsmaster
Junior Member
no he fell sick and kicked the bucket.
But HKPride definitely has way too much time on his hands.
But HKPride definitely has way too much time on his hands.
Re: If Alexander The Great Reached China
I can't agree any more. If Alexander can get the support from the Six States to the east of Xiao Mountain，Qin would be confronted by a disaster
I can't agree any more. If Alexander can get the support from the Six States to the east of Xiao Mountain，Qin would be confronted by a disaster
Re: If Alexander The Great Reached China
That couldn't be true.
At that time, China's backward west area couldn't support a troop with "about 50,000 Macedonians+100,000 Persians and Indians", logistic forbidden. They would be lunky if Alexander could bring in 30,000 troops from there.
Only east China could provide economic support for such size an army at that time. This is why Qin was always safe in west side, no big army could reach it in that direction, but Qin was the most westward kingdom with abundant fertilized land that supported its army as big as 600,000 men.
Also the problem for Alexander is that he heavily depended on his cavalry, whose charges almost nobody could resist. But Qin developed a very efficient way to fight with cavalry - the crossbow troop. Remember the Kingdom Zhao was famous for its cavalry as well, modeled based on Huns' cavalry, but it was defeated repeatly by Qin. Alexander wouldn't have much luck since his cavalry was not heaviy armored.
And China at that time was the walled states - every city was walled and it's very hard to sack it in the short time. In Jin's civil war it took one side 3 years to siege one city but couldn't sourrender it. In this situation number do mean things for attacking different cities at the same time, but Alexander didn't have, so he wouldn't have a chance if he could come to China.
That couldn't be true.
At that time, China's backward west area couldn't support a troop with "about 50,000 Macedonians+100,000 Persians and Indians", logistic forbidden. They would be lunky if Alexander could bring in 30,000 troops from there.
Only east China could provide economic support for such size an army at that time. This is why Qin was always safe in west side, no big army could reach it in that direction, but Qin was the most westward kingdom with abundant fertilized land that supported its army as big as 600,000 men.
Also the problem for Alexander is that he heavily depended on his cavalry, whose charges almost nobody could resist. But Qin developed a very efficient way to fight with cavalry - the crossbow troop. Remember the Kingdom Zhao was famous for its cavalry as well, modeled based on Huns' cavalry, but it was defeated repeatly by Qin. Alexander wouldn't have much luck since his cavalry was not heaviy armored.
And China at that time was the walled states - every city was walled and it's very hard to sack it in the short time. In Jin's civil war it took one side 3 years to siege one city but couldn't sourrender it. In this situation number do mean things for attacking different cities at the same time, but Alexander didn't have, so he wouldn't have a chance if he could come to China.
BLUEJACKET
Banned Idiot
That's why I think that if he ever had come to China, it would have been from the South, skiting high mountains and huge deserts-via SE Asia- provided he could defeat the ancient Vietnamese. If the Mongols couldn't do theat in Vietnam & Burma, how on Earth the Macedonians could have?
When people compare the warfare capabilities, you need to keep in the mind that by Alexander time, Chinese civilization had evolved into the stage that not one or two decisive battles could finish one power kingdom. The First Emperor's unification was the result of hundred years continuous effort, by politics, military and economy, it's simply the last strike.
In the First Emperor's grand father time, Qin and Zhao fought a big battle, and Qin captured 400,000 Zhao's soldiers and executed all of them, spared only 240, which is still one of the biggest massacre in the world history. But even after such catastrophic result for Zhao, Qin couldn't sack Zhao's capital and troops got exhausted, had to withdraw. By the First Emperor's time, all other six kingdoms had been exhausted in the fighting, and lost any will to challenge Qin. But still, it took Qin 10 years to conquer them one by one, with others just watching in standby. To conquer Chu, Qin mobilized 600,000 troops, a massive unimaginable force at that time. So to be successful in China, not only you need the combat skill, most important is the nation building strategy, as Qin's kings did all along the road. Combat capability of one general alone is very short lived, not decisive factor in Chinese history.
And that never changed. In Song dynasty, it took Mongol 60 years continuous fight to defeat Song, with a lot of help from Chinese themselves(north Chinese constitued the bulk of Mongolian force), while it only took them couple of years to sweep the other Euroasia continent - an astonishing short time to cover such a huge size. You can name a decisive battle Mongols fought with other countries, but you hardly can name one they fought decisively in China.
In the First Emperor's grand father time, Qin and Zhao fought a big battle, and Qin captured 400,000 Zhao's soldiers and executed all of them, spared only 240, which is still one of the biggest massacre in the world history. But even after such catastrophic result for Zhao, Qin couldn't sack Zhao's capital and troops got exhausted, had to withdraw. By the First Emperor's time, all other six kingdoms had been exhausted in the fighting, and lost any will to challenge Qin. But still, it took Qin 10 years to conquer them one by one, with others just watching in standby. To conquer Chu, Qin mobilized 600,000 troops, a massive unimaginable force at that time. So to be successful in China, not only you need the combat skill, most important is the nation building strategy, as Qin's kings did all along the road. Combat capability of one general alone is very short lived, not decisive factor in Chinese history.
And that never changed. In Song dynasty, it took Mongol 60 years continuous fight to defeat Song, with a lot of help from Chinese themselves(north Chinese constitued the bulk of Mongolian force), while it only took them couple of years to sweep the other Euroasia continent - an astonishing short time to cover such a huge size. You can name a decisive battle Mongols fought with other countries, but you hardly can name one they fought decisively in China.
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