H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)


G

gelgoog

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Registered Member
MarKoz81 said:
B-21 will be more expensive to maintain than B-52 or B-1 even with numerous improvements over B-2.
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If that is true it just shows how the US cannot even make a cost effective design anymore. There is no good reason why an eight engine aircraft like the B-52 should have lower maintenance costs than a twin engine aircraft like the B-21. If this is attributable to stealth coatings, taped over access panels, and the like it only shows how stealth, at least how the US implements it, is a boondoggle and a massive waste of money.

MarKoz81 said:
I omitted Russian bombers because I don't see them as a reliable factor in any future scenario that PLAAF could consider. PAK-DA is still theoretical. Tu-160 is at B-1 level (no matter what Russian propaganda claims) and Tu-95MSM will be at B-52 level approximately. Those are not assets useful in scenarios other than defense of own territory starting from 2030 onward.
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Tu-160:
Empty weight: 110,000 kg
Powerplant: 4 × NK-32 afterburning turbofan engines, 137.3 kN thrust each dry, 245 kN with afterburner
Maximum speed: Mach 2.05

B-1:
Empty weight: 87,090 kg
Powerplant: 4 × GE F101-GE-102 afterburning turbofan engines, 77.4 kN thrust each dry, 136.9 kN with afterburner
Maximum speed: Mach 1.25

Tu-160 has nearly twice the thrust and speed. Thrust and mass fraction directly relate to bomb load in such an aircraft.

As for the PAK-DA it has been funded, they are building two prototypes, and the engine is in the test stand. At this point it is about as theoretical as the H-20. The H-20 should come out earlier since it likely will use existing engine designs and the program was started earlier. H-20 will massively increase Chinese capabilities vs H-6K with regards to bomb load, range, penetration capabilities. It will be a quantum leap forward while B-21 is a downgrade in terms of capabilities from B-2. B-21 is basically a cost reduced version of the B-2. The main advantage is it is expected to be produced in higher numbers. As a B-1 replacement the B-21 will likely not have improved bomb load, will have lower maximum speed, and might have higher range and loiter time.
 
TK3600

TK3600

Junior Member
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
If that is true it just shows how the US cannot even make a cost effective design anymore. There is no good reason why an eight engine aircraft like the B-52 should have lower maintenance costs than a twin engine aircraft like the B-21. If this is attributable to stealth coatings, taped over access panels, and the like it only shows how stealth, at least how the US implements it, is a boondoggle and a massive waste of money.



Tu-160:
Empty weight: 110,000 kg
Powerplant: 4 × NK-32 afterburning turbofan engines, 137.3 kN thrust each dry, 245 kN with afterburner
Maximum speed: Mach 2.05

B-1:
Empty weight: 87,090 kg
Powerplant: 4 × GE F101-GE-102 afterburning turbofan engines, 77.4 kN thrust each dry, 136.9 kN with afterburner
Maximum speed: Mach 1.25

Tu-160 has nearly twice the thrust and speed. Thrust and mass fraction directly relate to bomb load in such an aircraft.

As for the PAK-DA it has been funded, they are building two prototypes, and the engine is in the test stand. At this point it is about as theoretical as the H-20. The H-20 should come out earlier since it likely will use existing engine designs and the program was started earlier. H-20 will massively increase Chinese capabilities vs H-6K with regards to bomb load, range, penetration capabilities. It will be a quantum leap forward while B-21 is a downgrade in terms of capabilities from B-2. B-21 is basically a cost reduced version of the B-2. The main advantage is it is expected to be produced in higher numbers. As a B-1 replacement the B-21 will likely not have improved bomb load, will have lower maximum speed, and might have higher range and loiter time.
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You talk as if today USA produce an identical copy of B-52 it wont be overpriced.
 
TK3600

TK3600

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Registered Member
Actually isn't that exactly what F-15X is? Rebuild of existing designs. It proves the issue of cost is not in stealth design but in the defense industry.
 
by78

by78

Lieutenant General
A cropped screen capture, taken from a CNY greeting from Shenyang. Not sure if this is relevant, but this thread will have to do.

52641008429_7bf87587cd_o.jpg
 
tphuang

tphuang

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Staff member
Super Moderator
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cross posting something I put in science & tech thread. This is from someone on Weibo that's more tech than defense focused.

News on China's scientific and technological development.

China's spending on research and development (R&D) exceeded 3 trillion yuan (about $442.63 billion) for the first time in 2022, and is estimated to account for 2.55% of the country's GDP, both hitting record highs: data from the National Bureau of Statistics..
www.sinodefenceforum.com
第二，H20首飞，进度赶得上2025首批入列。那差不多和003到时一个进度了，从此中国的天空更加严密。而003铁定开始海试，希望到时可以看到拆棚后的雄姿！

So he is saying here that H-20 will make its first flight this year (which I think most people would agree with) and that the initial batch might enter service in 2025 at around the same time as 003. I think 2025 initial service entry for 003 is reasonable.

But if we use J-20 as an example, 2011 made its initial flight in 2014 and initial batch joined FTTC in 2016. So if this is the case with H-20, then what will make first flight this year is more like 2011 and 35001 than 31001 or 2001. So, not just a demonstrator. I remember talking to patch a while back about something and he mentioned about possible small number of H-20 in service by 2025. At the time, I thought it was quite aggressive. I still think it is, but this is at least something to keep in mind.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
tphuang said:
cross posting something I put in science & tech thread. This is from someone on Weibo that's more tech than defense focused.

News on China's scientific and technological development.

China's spending on research and development (R&D) exceeded 3 trillion yuan (about $442.63 billion) for the first time in 2022, and is estimated to account for 2.55% of the country's GDP, both hitting record highs: data from the National Bureau of Statistics..
www.sinodefenceforum.com
第二，H20首飞，进度赶得上2025首批入列。那差不多和003到时一个进度了，从此中国的天空更加严密。而003铁定开始海试，希望到时可以看到拆棚后的雄姿！

So he is saying here that H-20 will make its first flight this year (which I think most people would agree with) and that the initial batch might enter service in 2025 at around the same time as 003. I think 2025 initial service entry for 003 is reasonable.

But if we use J-20 as an example, 2011 made its initial flight in 2014 and initial batch joined FTTC in 2016. So if this is the case with H-20, then what will make first flight this year is more like 2011 and 35001 than 31001 or 2001. So, not just a demonstrator. I remember talking to patch a while back about something and he mentioned about possible small number of H-20 in service by 2025. At the time, I thought it was quite aggressive. I still think it is, but this is at least something to keep in mind.
Click to expand...


This comparison to 2011 (J-20) and 350001 (J-35) is interesting especially for the J-35, since it will be interesting how many additional prototypes will appear when and in what intervals.


As for the H-20 I in fact won't hold my breath both with maiden flight this year - even if indeed likely - and service entry 2025 - IMO unlikely!
 
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