Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.


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AndrewS

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Missing the point here when talking about nodes and architecture.

Going after EUV lithography underlying technology means China will comprehensively bridge the gap that it lacks fundamental science research capability of industrial power houses like US, Japan and Germany.

Through this effort it will bring China entire industry to a different level.

45nm and 28nm optical lithography is nowhere near the extreme physics limitation and challenges of EUV lithography.it's different world.

I see quite number of Russian physicists from Moscow institutes of physics are hired by Western companies in the EUV industry.

Maybe China and Russia should partner up on this EUV Project. Russians traditionally very strong on physics and most importantly the ability of industrialization of it.
Yes, completely agree.

My original point is that China has a requirement to master every existing technology, in case of sanctions applied by hostile countries.

From the perspective of population, domestic market, R&D spending and R&D personnel - it is feasible for China to do this.
This is inefficient as it would be better not to have to reinvent everything again.
But the end result should be world-class Chinese companies in every industry and producing every component. These should be cheaper and better than their foreign competitors - due to the size of the Chinese domestic market.

But at the same time, China also needs to develop entirely new technologies where there is no existing competition, and which makes existing technologies obsolete.
 

nugroho

Junior Member
Missing the point here when talking about nodes and architecture.

Going after EUV lithography underlying technology means China will comprehensively bridge the gap that it lacks fundamental science research capability of industrial power houses like US, Japan and Germany.

Through this effort it will bring China entire industry to a different level.

45nm and 28nm optical lithography is nowhere near the extreme physics limitation and challenges of EUV lithography.it's different world.

I see quite number of Russian physicists from Moscow institutes of physics are hired by Western companies in the EUV industry.

Maybe China and Russia should partner up on this EUV Project. Russians traditionally very strong on physics and most importantly the ability of industrialization of it.
I read again what you wrote in early pages, and they proved to be truth, 7 nm can be achieved without EUV, and SMIC is doing it. Double Thumbs for you
 

navip635

New Member
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Not quite sure what's going on, SMIC in it's latest HK stock exchange filing stated that 12M ended 17Feb20, it spent US$600m buying wafer manufacturing machinery from US Lam Research Group. Is there a ban or not a ban.
 

AndrewS

Captain
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Not quite sure what's going on, SMIC in it's latest HK stock exchange filing stated that 12M ended 17Feb20, it spent US$600m buying wafer manufacturing machinery from US Lam Research Group. Is there a ban or not a ban.
SMIC isn't being sanctioned.
 

navip635

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Hmmmm, thought US twisted Dutch ASML's arm to forgo delivery of leading edge lithographic equipment to SMIC, as reported by Nikki and Reuters , also discussed a few pages back.
 

AndrewS

Captain
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Hmmmm, thought US twisted Dutch ASML's arm to forgo delivery of leading edge lithographic equipment to SMIC, as reported by Nikki and Reuters , also discussed a few pages back.
Yes, the US government did persuade the Dutch government to block exports of a EUV machine to SMIC in China.
But these SMIC purchases should be for non-EUV machines for 7nm.

I do expect that EUV will eventually be exported to SMIC.
But if it doesn't happen fairly soon, it will definitely create a Chinese competitor in the coming years.

It's just so short-sighted of the Dutch government.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Junior Member
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Yes, the US government did persuade the Dutch government to block exports of a EUV machine to SMIC in China.
But these SMIC purchases should be for non-EUV machines for 7nm.

I do expect that EUV will eventually be exported to SMIC.
But if it doesn't happen fairly soon, it will definitely create a Chinese competitor in the coming years.

It's just so short-sighted of the Dutch government.
What I worry most about is the Dutch government granting a license after a delay. If the license were withheld for good and China were certain of that it would force it to take whatever measures are available (patent infringement, rampant espionage, luring talent with monstrous salaries, heavy subsidies, etc.) to get this technology. Allowing China to buy it after a delay would both lose Chinese companies market share and undercut the efforts at independence.

Hopefully, Trump and the rest of the clowns aren't intelligent enough to figure that out.
 
Hopefully, Trump and the rest of the clowns aren't intelligent enough to figure that out.
No, it's not about getting it or not getting it for now. Just like Huawei announcing that it will never go back to Google no matter what, the importance of this episode shows China that its supply is not secure. What you get by the grace of others is never truly yours; it is only yours if no one can deny it to you. ASML is the world's only company in this area; when a Chinese competitor is created that can rise quickly and produce equipment for cheaper, then the Dutch will realize they slit their own throats at America's directory. Follow America and you are rewarded by paying for their failed gambles with your prized jewels. They will only remember this lesson if it is taught to them by experience.
 
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tidalwave

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Under current US government direction, SMIC can potentially be sanctioned if it use US equipments to manufacture chips for Huawei.
So as not to implicate othet Chinese companies, Huawei needs to get involved into chip manifacturing
 
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