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Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

localizer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Also remember that China can buy EUV but not the more common (DUV) deep UV machines due to Wassenar agreement.
 
14nm and 10nm use basically the same tools. 10nm is pushing the limits of old tools. Skipping to 7nm means switching to EUV and studying a whole new set of challenges, but EUV can do 3nm so were starting with more leg room. High risk high reward.

The performance difference between 14nm and 7nm is worth that risk imo.

Remember, TSMC pretty much skipped 10nm. Global foundaries quit 10nm. Intel failing at 10nm (tho their 14nm is only slightly worse than competitors’ 10nm)

Only good excuse for SMIC to stay at 14nm is to protect itself from EUV embargo.
what embargo ?
 

localizer

Junior Member
Registered Member
I thought EUV is more advanced than DUV
Yea exactly. The agreement prevents China from buying previous generation tech but not the newest. Thus the core equipment is taken care of if SMIC wants to make a 7nm node.
 
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tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
I heard ASML is delaying delivery of EUV lithography machines to SMIC, each of this machine cost $100miilion.

It's US putting pressure on Dutch government under Wassener agree ment to restrict the state of the art EUV machine to China.

However, currently TSMC 7nm process still using the optical lithography, not the EUV machine. It won't use EUV till 5nm. It gets away with multipattern techniques

ASML has a predication, it's main EUV light source is based US Cymer, so it's using US technology.

I said China shouls build its EUV machine by first using Japanese and Germany parts completely bypass US technology.

Use Germany Zeiss lens like ASML and replace US Cymer with Japan Gigaphoton laser produced plasma light source and Japanese Stepper unit. It's doable. This way bypass ASML all together.

Eventually develops domestic parts to replace Germany optics and Japanese light source and stepper later.

If China can make EUV machine on its own , then that represent the final frontier of technology barrier West has over China.I

I have been study EUV lithography for awhile on my own pretty much understand most internally and I can write a book on that, and have someone translate that into Chinese for education. I think fundamental science and physics is way more important than AI, big data, internet tech and blockchain... In this respect, me and Japanese are in sync. Japanese respect more fundamental science than h higher up application technology that i agree. The atomic bombs dropped on them left them quite a impresion, they vowed to become the master of fundamental science. Rectify their previous shortcomings, and the what ifs if they develop the atomic bomb first . What if they master that science first. ever since they try to master all the fundamental science with a vengeance
 
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Xsizor

Junior Member
Registered Member
I heard ASML is delaying delivery of EUV lithography machines to SMIC, each of this machine cost $100miilion.

It's US putting pressure on Dutch government under Wassener agree ment to restrict the state of the art EUV machine to China.

However, currently TSMC 7nm process still using the optical lithography, not the EUV machine. It won't use EUV till 5nm. It gets away with multipattern techniques

ASML has a predication, it's main EUV light source is based US Cymer, so it's using US technology.

I said China shouls build its EUV machine by first using Japanese and Germany parts completely bypass US technology.

Use Germany Zeiss lens like ASML and replace US Cymer with Japan Gigaphoton laser produced plasma light source and Japanese Stepper unit. It's doable. This way bypass ASML all together.

Eventually develops domestic parts to replace Germany optics and Japanese light source and stepper later.

If China can make EUV machine on its own , then that represent the final frontier of technology barrier West has over China.I

I have been study EUV lithography for awhile on my own pretty much understand most internally and I can write a book on that, and have someone translate that into Chinese for education. I think fundamental science and physics is way more important than AI, big data, internet tech and blockchain... In this respect, me and Japanese are in sync. Japanese respect more fundamental science than h higher up application technology that i agree. The atomic bombs dropped on them left them quite a impresion, they vowed to become the master of fundamental science. Rectify their previous shortcomings, and the what ifs if they develop the atomic bomb first . What if they master that science first. ever since they try to master all the fundamental science with a vengeance
I thought ASML representatives had clarified rather clearly that they look forward to the business in China? And remember that it was during the time when China and US trade war had reached a critical point ( much worse than the seemingly winding down atmosphere these days). Do you have some good sources on the news - that the US is putting pressure on ASML ? I thought that ASML EUVs had become "old enough" to be not under Wessenar?
Unless the Chinese EUV effort has picked up steam ... and that in turn got picked up by Industry Information sources ( Spies ? ). This is quite the about turn for ASML. Why did it display the confidence before when it knew it had U.S components ? Are you sure that ASML doesn't have backup/ alternate suppliers of the U.S sourced components ?
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
I thought ASML representatives had clarified rather clearly that they look forward to the business in China? And remember that it was during the time when China and US trade war had reached a critical point ( much worse than the seemingly winding down atmosphere these days). Do you have some good sources on the news - that the US is putting pressure on ASML ? I thought that ASML EUVs had become "old enough" to be not under Wessenar?
Unless the Chinese EUV effort has picked up steam ... and that in turn got picked up by Industry Information sources ( Spies ? ). This is quite the about turn for ASML. Why did it display the confidence before when it knew it had U.S components ? Are you sure that ASML doesn't have backup/ alternate suppliers of the U.S sourced components ?
asml is like a lenovo, system integrator,just Google SMIC news, a number of news saying delivery by ASML delayed
 

ZeEa5KPul

Junior Member
Registered Member
I thought ASML representatives had clarified rather clearly that they look forward to the business in China? And remember that it was during the time when China and US trade war had reached a critical point ( much worse than the seemingly winding down atmosphere these days). Do you have some good sources on the news - that the US is putting pressure on ASML ? I thought that ASML EUVs had become "old enough" to be not under Wessenar?
Unless the Chinese EUV effort has picked up steam ... and that in turn got picked up by Industry Information sources ( Spies ? ). This is quite the about turn for ASML. Why did it display the confidence before when it knew it had U.S components ? Are you sure that ASML doesn't have backup/ alternate suppliers of the U.S sourced components ?
Nikkei reported that the licence to export EUV machines under the Wassennaar agreement had expired and the US was pressuring ASML to withhold the machines
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-war/Exclusive-ASML-chip-tool-delivery-to-China-delayed-amid-US-ire
However, ASML denies that it's under US pressure
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3036872/dutch-chip-maker-asml-denies-reports-delayed-china-order-due-us

Use Germany Zeiss lens like ASML and replace US Cymer with Japan Gigaphoton laser produced plasma light source and Japanese Stepper unit. It's doable. This way bypass ASML all together.
That's just replacing one set of problems with another. How soon can China manufacture these components itself?
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
I can tell you US putting pressure on ASML thru Dutch government and putting pressure on TSMC thru taiwanese government. US pissed Huawei bragging about surviving without any US parts
 

Xsizor

Junior Member
Registered Member
asml is like a lenovo, system integrator,just Google SMIC news, a number of news saying delivery by ASML delayed
I know...thanks to your posts an year ago. I agree with you on a majority of your points regarding importance of fundamental physics / science research. Another area of critical interest is Pharmaceuticals and Biotechnology (making medicines and medical equipments).
 
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