Future PLAAF fleet procurement and composition

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
In future "bomb truck" role may be handled by something akin to a further evolution of the GJ-11 platform. Stealthy, unmanned, networked, sufficient IWB capacity with adequate range and loiter capabilities. Homeland air patrol is another role that may be easily taken over by UCAVs in the near future.
(1)yes in principle(though stealthy one will have exact same problems; doesn't have to be stealthy though).
But here's the problem - it's external component, and as such it doesn't place high quality requirement on control node. You can integrate them with anything which will just happen to be close by on theater.
(2)Right now i'm doubtful it can happen in near future. Economically/time-acceptable way of doing this mission is with numerous, relatively low range munitions, which require significant maneuvering at low altitude in congested space. This isn't a drone task for a while.
But they are irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is the forthcoming expected PLA growth in sustained 5th gen production.
If one accepts that the PLA will see significant addition of 5th gen airframes from now to 2030 (and afterwards as well), then you only have two options:
- Either expand the overall size of the manned fighter fleet post 2030.
- Or retain about a similar manned fighter fleet size, and retire 4.5th gen aircraft a bit earlier than their airframe lives would project.
On upper part we're in agreement. My argument is that in coming ~decade displacing 4.5 with 5-6 below certain threshold will be against ongoing combat experience, and, speaking very bluntly, risky in key PLA contingencies (i am rather firmly of opinion that, should things come to that, we'd see more than few dissapointing news due to bluefor shaheds coming, say, from the island).
- Low end capability: for air policing, bomb truck roles, or low end strike roles, those are all things J-20/A/S and J-35/A can do as well -- all with four likely fairly hefty external stations for outsized payloads (either unitary payloads or multi-rack stations, and to use similar or greater weapons variety than existing 4.5th gen aircraft).
Here specifically, i'd like to contest.
J-20/J-35A has 4 external points, even if they are heavy duty ones; J-35 may have 6(still 4 heavy), but this is moot. None of those have immediate rocket integration. Only rare J-20S has second pilot for more complex missions.
In almost all cases, 5th generation fighters are incompatible with external jamming pods, providing 360 protection, and those don't take heavy stations.

J-16 has 7 heavy duty stations (12 overall); that's two 5th gens worth of heavy suspension points per plane(x3 overall), and has rockets right now. Note that it appears 6th gens are absolutely smooth, and themselves probably won't be able to do rocket mission at all.
Even smaller J-10 family can bring more or less same oversized munitions to the theater(likely 1-2, but still), once again with already available integration of rockets.
 
Last edited:
(1)yes in principle(though stealthy one will have exact same problems; doesn't have to be stealthy though).
But here's the problem - it's external component, and as such it doesn't place high quality requirement on control node. You can integrate them with anything which will just happen to be close by on theater.
Hence something with the planform of GJ-11, which offers combination of stealth, internal fuel capacity, and IWB volume. Trade off would of course be speed, which for a bomb truck is primarily only relevant for the kinetic energy that can be transfered to munitions.
(2)Right now i'm doubtful it can happen in near future. Economically/time-acceptable way of doing this mission is with numerous, relatively low range munitions, which require significant maneuvering at low altitude in congested space. This isn't a drone task for a while.
You think a human pilot would be able to perform such maneuvers better than software?
 

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
Hence something with the planform of GJ-11, which offers both stealth, internal fuel capacity, and IWB volume. Trade off would of course be speed, which for a bomb truck is primarily only relevant for the kinetic energy that can be transfered to munitions.
GJ-11 is same ~4.2m bay. I.e. it's more of a penetration bomber/ISR.
It doesn't mean other drone won't be able to take this role, but it will be a different aircraft. And either can be perfectly integrated with previous gen aircraft, as long as it has appropriate interfaces.
To be honest maybe even easier, as you can add additional (cooled) processing and new comms way easier compared to how it's done on 5th gen.
You think a human pilot would be able to perform such maneuvers better than software?
As of right now, most certainly yes.
Later it will likely change, but as world seems to slide into madness, I would rather focus on how things are now or at most tomorrow.
Clean bets like luft'46 are very risky in a world where it's hard to guarantee how events will turn in next 48 hrs.
 

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
J-16 has 7 heavy duty stations (12 overall); that's two 5th gens worth of heavy suspension points per plane(x3 overall), and has rockets right now. Note that it appears 6th gens are absolutely smooth, and themselves probably won't be able to do rocket mission at all.
Even smaller J-10 family can bring more or less same oversized munitions to the theater(likely 1-2, but still), once again with already available integration of rockets.
J-20 and J-35 have 4 heavy duty hardpoints for heavy A2G munition while also maintaining the ability to bring a maximum of 6 PL-16s for self defense/air superiority mission, they could also bring 500kg class guided bombs in weapon bay as well. J-16s in reality will have to dedicate atleast 2 of those heavy stations to PL-15s and can at most realistically carry 4-5 heavy A2G munitions which is a marginal improvement over 5th generation while being limited in every other way.

Given that the PLAAF have already seemingly made a choice here by stopping the production of J-16s, I don't know what is there to further argue about.
 

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
J-20 and J-35 have 4 heavy duty hardpoints for heavy A2G munition while also maintaining the ability to bring a maximum of 6 PL-16s for self defense/air superiority mission, they could also bring 500kg class guided bombs in weapon bay as well. J-16s in reality will have to dedicate atleast 2 of those heavy stations to PL-15s and can at most realistically carry 4-5 heavy A2G munitions which is a marginal improvement over 5th generation while being limited in every other way.

Given that the PLAAF have already seemingly made a choice here by stopping the production of J-16s, I don't know what is there to further argue about.
PL-15 goes to external stations, as do self protection pods (chinese ones don't go to the edge stations like ru ones, which is unfortunate, but as is; at least you get 2 pl-10). With that, it's still all heavy duty pods, full flanker range and self escort.

The question isn't procurement(designed 4th gen force levels are there), the question is rushed retirement which appears to be highly undesirable per any available combat experience.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
On upper part we're in agreement. My argument is that in coming ~decade displacing 4.5 with 5-6 below certain threshold will be against ongoing combat experience, and, speaking very bluntly, risky in key PLA contingencies (i am rather firmly of opinion that, should things come to that, we'd see more than few dissapointing news due to bluefor shaheds coming, say, from the island).

Here specifically, i'd like to contest.
J-20/J-35A has 4 external points, even if they are heavy duty ones; J-35 may have 6(still 4 heavy), but this is moot. None of those have immediate rocket integration. Only rare J-20S has second pilot for more complex missions.
In almost all cases, 5th generation fighters are incompatible with external jamming pods, providing 360 protection, and those don't take heavy stations.

Lol if you are focused about "rocket integration" to be able to shoot down Shahed pattern one way drones, I have good news for you -- the PLA does not have a APKWS equivalent in service currently at all.
No PLA 4.5th gen aircraft has such a weapon, so technically 4.5th and 5th gen aircraft are operating with the same limitations in that regard.

Furthermore, once the PLA does have a APKWS equivalent or something like that, those weapons can be loaded onto J-20/A/S and J-35/As external stations in multiracks as well (e.g.: we've seen tripacks of 7 tube APKWS pods on aircraft like F-15Es; that is also perfectly feasible for the likes of 5th gens).


As for jamming pods -- 5th generation aircraft have much more integrated EW systems of their own; the whole point is that they do not require self defense jamming pods. If you're talking about larger EW pods like those that J-16D carry or larger standoff pods that sometimes we see JH-7/A or Flankers carry, technically that is something they can integrate onto 5th gens as well if they really wanted to.

I'm not sure what a second pilot is important for -- if anything, the 5th gen aircraft should have greater automation, so I wouldn't be surprised if a 5th gen aircraft has comparable if not superior situational awareness than a two seater 4.5th gen (though that is dependent on software upgrades for the latter)


J-16 has 7 heavy duty stations (12 overall); that's two 5th gens worth of heavy suspension points per plane(x3 overall), and has rockets right now. Note that it appears 6th gens are absolutely smooth, and themselves probably won't be able to do rocket mission at all.

If we are comparing like for like, and accepting these aircraft will need a BVR capability for such a strike mission, then that is 4 PL-15s or 6 PL-16s, which will take up 4 or 6 of those heavy duty J-16 stations, leaving only three heavy duty stations for a J-16.
For a J-20/A/S or a J-35/A, those 4 PL-15s or 6 PL-16s can be carried in the IWB, while it still has four heavy stations for external payloads.

Or alternatively one can give J-20A/S or J-35/A each two 500kg class weapons internally and two BVRAAMs internally, and to give the same load to a J-16 will still require those two 500kg class weapons and two BVRAAMs to go on heavy duty stations.
Either way, the J-16 doesn't particularly come out ahead. At best it is non-inferior to the 5th gens.

Even smaller J-10 family can bring more or less same oversized munitions to the theater(likely 1-2, but still), once again with already available integration of rockets.

As I mentioned, no such rocket systems exist for the PLA, and if/when they are developed, there is nothing stopping them from being equipped on a 5th generation aircraft's external stations either.

Just face it -- there is absolutely nothing that a 4.5th gen fighter can do better than a 5th gen. Even as a bomb truck, the 4.5th gen fighters are at best "comparable" in physical capacity to a 5th gen, and arguably worst (especially if one compares a J-10C).

The only leg you have to stand on is "they may not integrate XYZ external payload on a 5th gen aircraft" -- but we both know that's rubbish and is entirely dependent on the existing fleet breakdown of 4.5th and 5th gen numbers. As 5th gen fleet size increases and 4th gen aircraft are withdrawn and 4.5th gen aircraft start to face the reality of being muscled out, it will be a very viable task to integrate the variety of external payloads to 5th gen types.
There is literally nothing to lose from going to 5th gens from 4.5th gens, if we accept that they're going to be producing those 5th gens at scale as described in prior pages.



PL-15 goes to external stations, as do self protection pods (chinese ones don't go to the edge stations like ru ones, which is unfortunate, but as is). With that, it's still all heavy duty pods, full flanker range and self escort.

The question isn't procurement(designed 4th gen force levels are there), the question is rushed retirement which appears to be highly undesirable per any available combat experience.

No, the issue isn't "rushed retirement" -- it's about how to optimize the fleet when a bunch of new 5th gen aircraft are going to be produced over the next decade, and if they do not greatly expand the size of the fleet?

If one accepts the above priors, then you have only two options as follows (and I'm only being partly facetious here, and partly serious):
1) immediately mothball/preserve all of the new build 5th gen aircraft the moment they come off the production line, in favour of keeping the old 4.5th gen aircraft, and then only introduce the new mothballed/preserved 5th gens as the old 4.5th gens reach the end of their airframe life.
2) mothball/preserve and early retire the 4.5th gen aircraft, and replace them with new build 5th gen aircraft.
 
Last edited:

TK3600

Colonel
Registered Member
I used to think older 4gen is good for low intensity areas like India. But now with drones they are no longer needed.
 

mister unknown

New Member
Registered Member
Lol if you are focused about "rocket integration" to be able to shoot down Shahed pattern one way drones, I have good news for you -- the PLA does not have a APKWS equivalent in service currently at all.
No PLA 4.5th gen aircraft has such a weapon, so technically 4.5th and 5th gen aircraft are operating with the same limitations in that regard.

Furthermore, once the PLA does have a APKWS equivalent or something like that, those weapons can be loaded onto J-20/A/S and J-35/As external stations in multiracks as well (e.g.: we've seen tripacks of 7 tube APKWS pods on aircraft like F-15Es; that is also perfectly feasible for the likes of 5th gens).


As for jamming pods -- 5th generation aircraft have much more integrated EW systems of their own; the whole point is that they do not require self defense jamming pods. If you're talking about larger EW pods like those that J-16D carry or larger standoff pods that sometimes we see JH-7/A or Flankers carry, technically that is something they can integrate onto 5th gens as well if they really wanted to.

I'm not sure what a second pilot is important for -- if anything, the 5th gen aircraft should have greater automation, so I wouldn't be surprised if a 5th gen aircraft has comparable if not superior situational awareness than a two seater 4.5th gen (though that is dependent on software upgrades for the latter)




If we are comparing like for like, and accepting these aircraft will need a BVR capability for such a strike mission, then that is 4 PL-15s or 6 PL-16s, which will take up 4 or 6 of those heavy duty J-16 stations, leaving only three heavy duty stations for a J-16.
For a J-20/A/S or a J-35/A, those 4 PL-15s or 6 PL-16s can be carried in the IWB, while it still has four heavy stations for external payloads.

Or alternatively one can give J-20A/S or J-35/A each two 500kg class weapons internally and two BVRAAMs internally, and to give the same load to a J-16 will still require those two 500kg class weapons and two BVRAAMs to go on heavy duty stations.
Either way, the J-16 doesn't particularly come out ahead. At best it is non-inferior to the 5th gens.



As I mentioned, no such rocket systems exist for the PLA, and if/when they are developed, there is nothing stopping them from being equipped on a 5th generation aircraft's external stations either.

Just face it -- there is absolutely nothing that a 4.5th gen fighter can do better than a 5th gen. Even as a bomb truck, the 4.5th gen fighters are at best "comparable" in physical capacity to a 5th gen, and arguably worst (especially if one compares a J-10C).

The only leg you have to stand on is "they may not integrate XYZ external payload on a 5th gen aircraft" -- but we both know that's rubbish and is entirely dependent on the existing fleet breakdown of 4.5th and 5th gen numbers. As 5th gen fleet size increases and 4th gen aircraft are withdrawn and 4.5th gen aircraft start to face the reality of being muscled out, it will be a very viable task to integrate the variety of external payloads to 5th gen types.
There is literally nothing to lose from going to 5th gens from 4.5th gens, if we accept that they're going to be producing those 5th gens at scale as described in prior pages.





No, the issue isn't "rushed retirement" -- it's about how to optimize the fleet when a bunch of new 5th gen aircraft are going to be produced over the next decade, and if they do not greatly expand the size of the fleet?

If one accepts the above priors, then you have only two options as follows (and I'm only being partly facetious here, and partly serious):
1) immediately mothball/preserve all of the new build 5th gen aircraft the moment they come off the production line, in favour of keeping the old 4.5th gen aircraft, and then only introduce the new mothballed/preserved 5th gens as the old 4.5th gens reach the end of their airframe life.
2) mothball/preserve and early retire the 4.5th gen aircraft, and replace them with new build 5th gen aircraft.

Instead of early retirement for the 4.5-gen fleet, is it possible to simply relegate them to training roles? Doing such a mission would be overkill (& more expensive vs maintaining cheap trainers), but they're more than adequate for the task, & they could be repurposed in a dire emergency if needed.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Instead of early retirement for the 4.5-gen fleet, is it possible to simply relegate them to training roles? Doing such a mission would be overkill (& more expensive vs maintaining cheap trainers), but they're more than adequate for the task, & they could be repurposed in a dire emergency if needed.

Training, but for what? The flight training pathway for pilots whose final target aircraft are 5th gens do not need an intermediary 4.5th gen element as part of their syllabus. Basic trainer, intermediate trainer, LIFT, then target aircraft is fairly reasonable.

If you're talking about training in terms of DACT/opfor, then sure it could make sense to keep a small number of them active, but that would only end up being a fraction (say, 1/10th) of the total 700ish vanilla J-16+J-10C fleet. But that still leaves a lot to be mothballed.


Either way, for the vast majority of the 4.5th gens, if 5th gen airframe production occurs at pace like we expect, then there's just really no place for a meaningful active 4.5th gen element to the manned fighter fleet unless they choose to expand fleet size.

(Or unless the PLA wants to actively sabotage themselves and mothball new production 5th gens immediately off the factory floor, to keep 4.5th gens around. I suppose that would certainly be operating with a handicap to give adversary nations more of a fighting chance)
 

Squadson

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don’t think a “bomb truck” configuration would be very effective for PLAAF fighters, mainly because they lack the proper munitions to support such a role. For this kind of configuration, you really need weapons like Small Diameter Bombs (SDBs) or other long-range standoff munitions.

However, as far as I can recall, the PLAAF neither operates SDB-class weapons nor possesses a large inventory of long-range air-launched standoff munitions. Yes, we’ve seen the AKF-98 carried by the J-16 and JH-7—twice, at the 2022 and 2024 Zhuhai Air Shows—but beyond that, there’s actually little/no evidence of widespread integration of such weapons. In fact, we rarely see them carrying long-range air-launched munitions at all, which is quite surprising.

I don’t understand why the PLAAF appears to focus predominantly on air-to-air combat, whereas counterparts like the U.S. and Japan are emphasizing both air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities.

So before discussing “bomb truck” concepts, we should first ask: does the PLAAF actually have the appropriate munitions to support such a configuration?
 
Top