France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

jawad

New Member
Congratulations Pak Navy. First ever MESMA AIP Sub launched

Musharraf launches Agosta 90-B submarine in Karachi KARACHI, Aug 10 (APP) The second indigenously built Agosta 90-B submarine was launched at a ceremony here Thursday. President General Pervez Musharraf was the chief guest on the occasion. First Lady, Begum Sehba Musharraf, performed the launch of the submarine which was later named by the President as `Hamza'. It is the first submarine of the country fitted with the advanced MESMA Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system.(Posted @ 15:45 PST)

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jawad

New Member
Indianfighter said:
The above statement is inaccurate. Other than the proposal for 126 MRCA, no other proposal has been announced by India. The F-16 aircraft is a candidate considered by India despite it being offered to Pakistan.

Agosta has been manufactured in Pakistan under licence. It cannot be termed as an indigenous development.

It is indeed true that the advancement of submarines of Pakistani Navy is greater than that of Indian Navy. While the former shall possess the next-generation submarines from France, the next-generation submarines for the Indian Navy relies on the completion of the ATV project (that has been under development since 1983).
Mirage 2000-5 deal did not happned in 90s due to corruption charges worth 200m$ and in 2000 onward PAF did not wanted t
brother u quoted me
Pakistan will launch its third indigenously built submarine, AGOSTA 90-B (PNS HAMZA) tomorrow

i hope that ATV will be out there soon as indian developments always helps pakistan ;)
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Just read this interesting bit of news

The German business newspaper Handelsblatt reported on Monday that the UAE wants to buy hundreds of German military tanks and a number of submarines.

Citing government and industry sources, the newspaper said the sale was likely to be rubber-stamped shortly by the German government, which has already agreed on forming a "strategic partnership" with the UAE.

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Now for a while there has been an idea in Pakistan of building stronger military relations with the Gulf states as they are feeling threatened by regional powers. Obviously none of the Gulf states wants outside non-muslim powers intervening in the area because of the internal reaction.

Pakistan & UAE: Building a Community of Power
shireen

Contributing Editor Dr SHIREEN M MAZARI discusses the strong relationship between the UAE and PAKISTAN
In March there was news that Pakistan and the UAE were involved in a cooperative dialogue. This was a positive development in the region which should bode well for both countries. Given this author's premise that global relations will, in the future, evolve around the concept of Communities of Power, an evolving cooperative framework could be the beginnings of a community of power in this region.

What exactly is a community of power? As defined by this writer, it describes interstate relations at multiple levels encompassing economic, social and cultural linkages and interdependence, where the military factor is one of the inputs. It is this level that is becoming increasingly more important, with states grouping together after identifying multiple levels of congruent interests. And it is this multiple-level state interaction that is going to define international relations more and more - where the military factor, while still an important part of the equation, will be simply one of the factors defining global relations. Within such a framework what one will see are not 'poles' of power or 'centres' of power, but communities of power - where 'community' denotes multipolarity of interests and 'power' denotes the element of military and/or economic force. For Pakistan, it is this framework that must be developed, regionally and globally - and for the UAE such an option means a multiplication of power potential within the global and regional system of states.

From a Pakistani perspective, there are minimal grounds of dissension with the UAE and numerous factors of commonality, and the same is true for the UAE in relation to Pakistan. Apart from the underlying Islamic bonding, there is already a history of military cooperation between the two countries and Pakistan has provided a spate of advisers to the ruling houses of the Emirate Kingdoms. In addition, there is a personal affinity between many of these ruling families and Pakistan and private visits to this country are frequent for members of the ruling families.

On the other side, Pakistanis form a large chunk of the massive expatriate community in the UAE - from workers to businesspeople to technocrats. And the element of military cooperation still remains active at various levels, including the presence of officers from the UAE at the various military academies and colleges in Pakistan. So the question then arises as to why Pakistan and the UAE should seek the building of a community of interest which would involve more formalised cooperation at the economic, social and military levels?

Rationale for Pakistan

From Pakistan's perspective, a cooperative relationship with the UAE forms an ideal basis for developing a larger community of power in West and Central Asia over the long term. Pakistan would eventually offer the ideal bridge between these two regions. And of all the possible partners for the building of a community of power, the UAE is in many ways the most ideal choice for Pakistan.

One, there already exist many levels of formal and informal interaction and cooperation between the UAE and Pakistan. So Pakistan can build on these foundations.

Two, despite all these linkages the UAE on many fronts continues to tread a very careful path on conflictual issues between Pakistan and India. For instance, on the issue of Kashmir the press in the UAE has strict instructions to follow a moderate middle path so that neither the Pakistanis nor the Indians have reason to be 'upset'. This is because the Indians have a greater degree of penetration into the UAE - at the unofficial level especially. Indian business has a massive presence within the UAE that penetrates all sectors from industry to the press. Indian workers and technocrats are also present in huge numbers and the Indian entertainment industry has already invaded UAE society. And the Indian government has very successfully compelled the UAE into adopting an 'even-handed' approach on issues such as the Kashmir issue. So, despite all the economic assistance that the UAE is ready to dole out, Pakistan needs to move towards a more encompassing formal alliance with the UAE to move the latter away from the so-called 'even-handed' approach.

Three, the location of the UAE offers a natural basis for a security alliance in the region, offering Pakistan a strategic rear in terms of naval and air power. Also, the British-Pakistani organizational structures of the armed forces of both Pakistan and the UAE would allow a natural military cooperative base.

Four, with no outstanding political issues or competing political ambitions, it would be relatively easy for the two countries to move towards formal alliance-building.

Five, Pakistan can - if it can overcome its own sectarian divides - act as a natural bridge, over the long term, between the UAE and Iran through into Central Asia. With the economic power of the UAE and the military power of Pakistan, a viable community of interest can be built up beginning with a cooperative alliance between the UAE and Pakistan. Pakistan can provide the base for a security arrangement for Central Asian states as well as West Asian states. After all, if the Germans and French could resolve their very substantive political differences, and Christian sectarian issues died a natural death within interstate relations of Christian Europe, there is no reason why Pakistan cannot act as an arbiter to resolve any Arab(UAE)-Iranian differences. Given the new notion of communities of power, Islam is now a critical factor to be considered in power formulations - and, given the military weaknesses of most West and Central Asian states, Pakistan is ideally placed to be the focal point of a defence pact along the lines of NATO. After all, if the West considers NATO not only a continuing viability but also within an expanded framework, then the model is also viable for other regions where a core military power exists. The strength of this core state will be relative to that of the other regional states - with no need for a comparison between the NATO core state and this state.

Rationale for UAE

If the UAE wants to move beyond simply being an oil-rich entity, which for the present attracts Western indulgence, and convert its economic might into overall multiple levels of power to become a significant regional actor, then it needs to evolve formal alliance structures with other states of the region. That it has the economic base to evolve a community of power should not be wasted, but why should it look towards Pakistan?

One, Pakistan has already proved to be an ideal partner for military cooperation with the UAE, in a limited fashion. also, Pakistan has a natural respect and affinity for the rulers and people of the UAE and the relationship has many substantive levels at which it now operates.

Two, a nuclear Pakistan offers the professional and military inputs needed to build a community of power.

Three, such an alliance will, over a period of time, reduce the UAE's technological and military dependence on the West. In other words, it will simply be looking to the West as a buyer with other choices - and will not need to have a security dependency on the West which it has at present.

Four, not only does the UAE need to diversify its oil-based economic power, it can, with Pakistan, become a critical regional actor so that it can fully exploit its geopolitical potential.

Five, it can act as the base for a further nexus of alliances with the rest of the Arab world from a position of strength and solidity. Moreover, within a community of power framework it can also become an effective actor within the global arena of international institutions.

Six, it has the potential to become an important regional power only within such a framework as so many smaller Western European states have done through the EU, NATO or the notion of the Nordic Council. In one shape or another, it has been not simply a community of interest that has made these groupings influential, it has been a community of power in one form or another - based of course on a commonality of multiple levels of interest and coalescing identities. For the UAE, there is more potential in a formal alliance and commitment in a community of power with Pakistan than in simply walking the diplomatic and political tightrope between Pakistan and India. Also, it needs to become less dependent upon the West both militarily and economically and, on both these counts, a nuclear Pakistan allows the UAE greater choices. After all, simply becoming a financial magnet in the region is not enough - look what happened to the economically prosperous and developed Lebanon as it was rent apart by external armed interventionist forces.

Finally, for both Pakistan and the UAE, uniting together in a formal community of power will mean less manoeuvrability for obscurantism forces. In fact this will hold true as more and more Islamic states coalesce together - and as the Arab world and Iran reach a substantive base of understanding and cooperation which is a real possibility within the community of power framework.

So what would be the blueprint for such a Community of Power?

Blueprint

The multiple levels of interlinkages between Pakistan and the UAE that identify a sense of 'community' of interests have been identified above. As for the underlying 'power' element needed for the establishment of a community of power, Pakistan's nuclear capability provides a solid dimension to the military element of power - with the UAE buttressing this power foundation with the required economic strength. So how does the community of power translate itself into a reality?

Building the power base

The first formal structure that needs to be created is a military alliance since that is the base of the community of power. Between Pakistan and the UAE such an alliance would in many of its dimensions simply be the formalisation of multiple levels of military cooperation that has existed between these entities. Also, the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council) provides a limited military cooperative framework which could be transformed into a wider military alliance between the GCC members and Pakistan. Of course, in such an instance the Western military inputs would be reduced and eliminated and replaced by a Pakistani military presence.

A formal military alliance between the UAE and Pakistan would need to comprise inter alia the following terms and commitments:

One: That the alliance would be a collective defence pact in keeping with the terms of the UN Charter, where an attack or intent to attack any one of the member states would be seen as an attack against the whole collectively.

Two: The geographical framework of the pact would have to be defined clearly and would include the entrance to the Persian Gulf as well as a reasonable security zone beyond Pakistan's territorial waters. The land frontiers of the pact members would be the other geographical bounds of the pact.

Three: There would need to be a built-in provision for the natural expansion of this community of power at a later date to eventually include - if those states so desired - other states of the Arabian peninsula and Iran. Or there could be an arrangement between this community of power and another one which could evolve between Pakistan, Iran and the Central Asian states. With Pakistan as the common denominator, the suspicions and antagonisms between the Arab World and Iran could be mitigated over a period of time.

Four: There would be joint command of the alliance military forces, but if at a future date nuclear weapons were deployed on UAE soil, military control would rest solely with the Pakistanis.

Five: That there would be standardisation of all military hardware and weapon systems as well as force structures.

Six: A first step in building a formal military alliance would be the establishment of a Pakistani military presence in the UAE in terms of bases and weapons deployments. The geography of the pact would demand a greater investment and focus on naval and air deployments - with a blue water navy becoming a necessity over a period of time.

Seven: The economics of such an alliance would be worked out keeping in mind some of the earlier arrangements that involved limited military cooperation between Pakistan and the UAE. For the UAE, such an alliance would allow it to end Western military intrusions from Britain and the USA - and that would have a financial aspect also.

Included in the dynamics of such an alliance would be the technical infrastructure which could be located in the UAE and in Pakistan. Also, an extensive intelligence gathering network would have to be set-up in the UAE. By its very nature, such an alliance would expand the power projection of both the UAE and Pakistan, especially given the economic dynamics of energy and oil that emanate from this region. The UAE would not be seen as it is presently seen - as a unidimensional oil-rich state that also provides a pleasurable lifestyle but little else in terms of international political weightage. For the location and economic potential of the UAE should translate into a more substantive international presence.

Economic cooperation

Building on the military power base, economic cooperation leading to an eventual common market would be the thrust of the community of power. Luckily, in the case of the UAE and Pakistan the private sector is already heavily involved in cooperative ventures - especially Pakistani technocrats and business people moving into the UAE market. However, a major drawback is the unwillingness of the UAE government to allow foreigners to own property. Eventually, within a community of power, the UAE will have to liberalise many of its present laws relating to business and property. On the other side, UAE nationals, including their ruling families, already own property in Pakistan and are involved in social welfare projects around the areas where they own major real estate. The exact nature of how the ownership rights have been worked out are not public knowledge, but there is a feeling that the UAE ruling families have a fair amount of freedom of action in this field.

Pakistan has to clean up its infrastructure to attract economic investment - and merely having formal alliances will not do this unless the indigenous climate is investor-friendly. Such an alliance should be a strong motivating force for this clean-up.

Free movement of peoples - especially professionals - will evolve once Pakistan is able to curtail the problem of illegal migrant workers. A formal community of power will also act as a strong deterrent for obscurantist proselytising forces as well as reducing safe havens and refuges for terrorists.

Again, a more formalised cooperative framework would enable the UAE and other Gulf countries to send oil pipelines across Pakistan into South Asia within a secure security arrangement which would also address Pakistan's problems on that score.

Political & social sector cooperation

Political cooperation in terms of coordination of foreign policies would give both Pakistan and the UAE a weightier presence in international organisations and in other international fora.

Within the UN, this community of power could be the beginnings of seeking to restructure the UN along the lines of giving such groupings permanent representation within a completely revamped UN system.

Again, Pakistan could also give the necessary weightage to a collective Arab world approach to the whole Palestinian problem including recognition of Israel. And there are many more opportunities for similar collective policy formulations within the regional and global levels. Moving beyond the purely political, Pakistan can also offer the skilled manpower in many fields where presently the UAE employs Western professionals at very high cost - such as the medical and teaching professions. Cultural affinities also add to the benefits from such cooperation. All in all, by building a community of power Pakistan and the UAE can evolve a progressive Islamic polity which can be a forerunner for other such communities of power.

In the post bipolar world, what is not being grasped by the Islamic world is the fact that gradually the West is building up a psychosis in its polities against Islam - very similar to what Hitler did in relation to the Jews. This is what a sensitive Westerner married to a Pakistani and living in Pakistan pointed out last week after witnessing an anti-Muslim tirade from a UN employee. And unless the Muslim world is prepared, it will be overwhelmed by this anti-Islamic onslaught of the West. After all, lessons of history must be learned, not ignored. And since Pakistan is the only Muslim country to have a nuclear capability, it must use the opportunities that the capability offers to forge a sense of community amongst the Muslim countries of the region - but this sense of community can only become effective when it is backed by power. Hence the need to build communities of power which are founded on a power base and reflect multiple levels of cooperation and interaction.

Now the first part of the above idea has taken place with the UAE agreeing to invest about $10 billion in Gwadar.

and it seems that military co-operation between the countries is now being strengthened for part 2

UAE, Pakistan sign military cooperation agreement
posted on 30/04/2006
Lt. General Hamad Mohammed Thani Al Rumaithi, Chief of UAE Army Staff, received yesterday General Ehsan Ul Haq, Pakistani Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, who is currently on a visit to the UAE. During the meeting that was attended by a number of officers and members of the delegation accompanying the senior Pakistani official, they discussed avenues of cooperation between the two countries and ways to boost them. Meanwhile, the UAE and Pakistan have signed here today at the Armed Forces Officers Club an agreement to develop and strengthen military relations between the two countries. Lt. General Al Rumaithi signed the agreement for the UAE side, while General Ehsan Ul Haq signed for the Pakistani side. (Emirates News Agency, WAM)

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Now since Pakistan is also interested in purchasing either French or German submarines does that mean that Pakistan has decided to buy German ?
 

PakTopGun

New Member
From what I've gathered on the Marlin Sub design and altered propellar, shape/hull etc.. it seems that it has many of the design similarities with a nuclear sub minus the propulsion system. Given that the country already has the nuclear know-how, and a large pool of Nuclear scientist, it may be possible for Pakistan to go at the propulsion issue on its own and fitting it into a future design when its ready. Im no expert on Nuclear propolsion but this seems to be the general idea. Pakistan already received considerable ToT with the Agusta's, so a move in this direction will definately be interesting.:coffee:
 

jawad

New Member
i think that it will be a SSK version of Barracuda Class SSN just like
Turquoise SSK submarine is a derivative of the Rubis Amethyste class
 

jawad

New Member
Pakistan acquires capability to develop N-sub

By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has acquired the capability of developing its own nuclear submarine. Pakistani scientists and the engineers have developed indigenous technology for building the nuclear submarines at the existing facilities. This capability will strengthen the naval defence of the country. President Gen Pervez Musharraf will discuss this matter with the Chinese President during his visit to Islamabad in November this year.

Pakistan started exploring alternative sources and strategies to bridge the wide gap with India in conventional and strategic weapons/forces to sustain its independence and sovereignty. The gap was widening due to the United State’s tilt towards India as compared to Pakistan. According to a military comparison, Indo-Pak conventional and strategic asymmetries until now are not primarily in favour of Pakistan.
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French naval export company Armaris on Aug. 28 made a formal offer of three Marlin diesel-electric patrol submarines to Pakistan, a deal that would include MBDA Exocet SM39 missiles, a Pakistani official said Sept. 8.
The French government granted approval for Armaris to offer the Marlin SSK in May, after long hesitation for fear of upsetting India, which recently bought six French Scorpene submarines, also armed with Exocet anti-ship weapons.
MBDA declined comment. Armaris officials were not immediately available.
Complicating the sale for France is the Pakistan Navy’s preference for the Boeing Harpoon missile. The U.S. government has authorized the sale of 30 submarine-launched versions of the Harpoon to Islamabad.
Acquisition of the Harpoon would be a first for Pakistan, as its forces have only operated the air-launched and surface ship versions so far. The Pakistan Navy operates the French DCN-designed Agosta 90B Khalid boat, armed with Exocets.
French business daily La Tribune reported Sept. 8 that Spanish and Germany industry were working on their offers to Pakistan.
The Marlin would be an updated, all-French version of the Franco-Spanish Scorpene boat and include air-independent propulsion. The sub deal is likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion.
Armaris is a DCN-Thales joint venture.
 

jawad

New Member
Just read this interesting bit of news



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Now for a while there has been an idea in Pakistan of building stronger military relations with the Gulf states as they are feeling threatened by regional powers. Obviously none of the Gulf states wants outside non-muslim powers intervening in the area because of the internal reaction.



Now the first part of the above idea has taken place with the UAE agreeing to invest about $10 billion in Gwadar.

and it seems that military co-operation between the countries is now being strengthened for part 2



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Now since Pakistan is also interested in purchasing either French or German submarines does that mean that Pakistan has decided to buy German ?

UAE will invest 43b$ in next 10 years
China will invest 50b$ in next 5-10 years
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Well it's now been confirmed.

Armaris Offers Pakistan Licensed Production of 3 Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabad’s diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.
“This is one deal we have to win,” the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.

Germany’s HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said.
The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.
In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, France’s DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.
Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistan’s charge.
Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales.
In Bulgaria’s tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.
The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris’ Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).

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It's interesting to see that Pakistan still has the 214 in the running which is why armaris have offered domestic production.

the 214 bid has a slightly better chance in my view because of the uae issue
(see previous post 23)
 

jawad

New Member
Well it's now been confirmed.


Quote:
Armaris Offers Pakistan Licensed Production of 3 Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabad’s diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.
“This is one deal we have to win,” the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.
Germany’s HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said.
The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.
In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, France’s DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.
Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistan’s charge.
Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales.
In Bulgaria’s tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.
The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris’ Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).


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It's interesting to see that Pakistan still has the 214 in the running which is why armaris have offered domestic production.

the 214 bid has a slightly better chance in my view because of the uae issue
(see previous post 23)
PN wanted first boat to be made in pakistan see post 19#
Marlin stands first as per my understanding
 
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