Firearms advanced technologies successful and failed


Iron Man

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Moving a conversation here as it’s is less to do with that subject matter of the QST-11




First, a tungsten cored 30.06 would likely Penetrate a Chinese, Russian or American Level IV plate.
Watch this video

Now Carl and Ian know better they keep saying that M855A1 and M80A1 are Tungsten cores. They aren’t.
They are hardened steel core copper jacketed.
M80A1 Steel cored did not penetrate the plate they tested against. However M61 which is an AP round with a tungsten core and 7.62x51MM NATO did.
7.62x51mm was designed to match 30.06 and the standard for the Level IV rating is to defeat a M2 Hardened steel cored 30.06 round not a more exotic cored round. So beating M2 is like beating M80A1 only less copper more lead. But if you put an M61 projectile in a 30.06 case and shot it at a Level IV plate it would penetrate.

If this was 6.8x43mm SPC I would say you @Iron Man were absolutely correct that 7.62x51 or 30.06 would easily out perform. However the 6.8mm projectile being pushed by the US Army IS NOT SPC!

In a conventional cased configuration the weapons that have been built for this are based off 7.62x51mm parents. View attachment 53617
The round has characteristics on par with .270 Winchester short magnum, in a metric conversion that would be about 7x63mm.
This is part of why the weapon program is controversial among defense watchers. The round is almost identical in size.
View attachment 53618
The silvery round on the right is a 6.8mm conventional case version. The other rounds? 7.62x51mm sits next to it the other is 5.56x45mm NATO. So with this in mind we are talking about a battle rifle class ammo.
On a side note US SOCOM has started adopting 6.5mm Creadmore ammo for its battle rifle and Mk48 Mgs it gives higher range than 7.62x51mm a flatter trajectory and less felt recoil. The US Army may be trying to get the same here.

In the XM1186 configuration it is unlikely to penetrate Level IV ceramic plates as the core is steel.
However the XM1184 is called “Special Purpose” it could be an AP round with a tungsten core which should AP Level IV armor.
Right, it's basically a .270 WSM. I'm not sure how this makes it a battle rifle class ammo or gain the ability to outpenetrate the 30.06 AP round.
 
@Jura
1) it’s a Glock.
2) any number of factors can come into play. Narcotics included.
The Human body is very resilient on its own. Evolution of the mammal form has resulted in a organism that is able to absorb a significant amount of damage and still remain living. See any survivors of forced amputation in combat or in automobile accident as an example.
As such there are only three ways to actually kill a human.

The first is to produce significant blood loss. A weapon like a knife or small arms like a pistol can do this but it’s rather inefficient. This method can take time. Even an individual shot in a major organ like the heart can take a while to die.
The amount of trauma needed to induce death is fairly significant and the cause in this form is blood pressure loss. The Human body is designed to try and prevent loss of that pressure. As such it could take hours before the officer having been stabbed or attacker having been shot losses enough blood pressure to die. Unless a major artery has been damaged it could take hours even days. Even if one is hit it could take minutes to hours.

The second is to produce damage to the central nervous system. This is SIGNIFICANTLY more complicated. Think of the nervous system as a computer the brain is the mother board. The CPU is the brain stem it’s the most important portion of the brain any you can loos everything else and remain living <although not able to do anything> but that part is critical to life.
Shutting that down could be done in two manors first is to cause enough pain that you overload the system. That is however almost impossible. You need a huge event, people have been struck by lightning which is a massive electrical attack to the central nervous system and lived long lives afterward. The other way is to break the CPU. Attack the brain stem directly. With small arms like a pistol it takes a marksman and even then evolution has armored it. The skull and spine. And a 9mm or 10mm round commonly used by law enforcement or military often are not accurate enough or powerful enough to get past the skull from the front without being redirected.

Third is Toxic shock where in the body is loaded down with chemicals it is unable to deal with. This obviously has almost no baring here. It can occur from being shot if the wound becomes infected and is left untreated but that is a long slow painful way to die.

Now we go the the case in point a police officer finds himself being attacked by a knife wielding attacker. He shoots the suspect center of mass.
When a Cop or military is engaged by an attacker adrenaline red lines.
They might be the best shot on the range but in combat adrenaline is a narcotic of its own produced by the Human body. It can rob you of precision because it changes how you see the world. Tunnel vision.
It also changes how you react by increasing muscle impulse. Rather than a clean break of the trigger you rip it back. Your heart rate is peaked to. And time and perception are altered cops in this have sometimes been found to thing they fired once or twice and discovered they had in fact emptied the magazine, and hit nothing.

On the other side of that the knife attacker is also amped up on adrenaline as well as the potential to be riding high on other narcotics. They don’t feel pain the way they should. There perceptions are also altered and a miss or a “warning shot” can be taken as impotence. Encouragement to continue attacking.

Both sides of this are why “warning shots” are a total waste of ammunition.
In this situation whether a Active shooter, a suicide bomber, a knife wielding man on a college campus or a knife wielding woman trying to force her way across a checkpoint. If they are in the mind to attack it can take a lot to put them down. A taser may not be enough and lethal force can take a while to kick in.
thanks but what I've meant is if it's like normal to be able to stand up and fight after being repeatedly shot with a pistol, actually I recently saw a vid in which a guy under similar circumstances was able to get on his car and drive away (!), or an individual capable of it has to be doped?

I guess dumdum bullets would change this, that's why I also asked about the police ammo
 

TerraN_EmpirE

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thanks but what I've meant is if it's like normal to be able to stand up and fight after being repeatedly shot with a pistol, actually I recently saw a vid in which a guy under similar circumstances was able to get on his car and drive away (!), or an individual capable of it has to be doped?

I guess dumdum bullets would change this, that's why I also asked about the police ammo
A dumdum is crude form of round akin to hollow points a expanding bullet type meant to cause larger damage by hydrodynamic shock effects. I E on Contact with fluids like say the 75% that make up a human body they expand.
For Military such bullet types are highly restricted. There are expansive bullets in service but only for aerodynamic effects. Basically they are not designed to expand on penetration, the expansion is an unintended side effect of characteristics used by the bullet to gain more aerodynamic flight.
Law enforcement and Counter terrorist units have no such restrictions they are allowed to use Hollow points. Most police agencies use hollow point in pistols. Despite the expansion effect they are not able to instantly kill.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

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Right, it's basically a .270 WSM. I'm not sure how this makes it a battle rifle class ammo or gain the ability to outpenetrate the 30.06 AP round.
Well close to it.
On battle rifle class. This is a higher pressure round type. The terms assault rifle and battle rifle are really sorta more hype than practical but generally a assault rifle is a rifle with selective fire that fires a intermediate caliber round that is, high velocity medium to low caliber, low mass ammunition.
A Battle rifle is a round that fires a full power rifle round that is higher velocity medium to high caliber with a higher mass. This .277 caliber round would have a higher mass and higher velocity.
Hence the comparison to 270 WSM.

Now as to penetration vs the M2 30.06 round this has more to do with the construction of the bullet.
The M2 30.06 was classed as AP for the same reason Norinco exports of 7.62x39mm is also classed as AP, And Banned in the US from import.
Which is an old definition that gets regurgitated. Basically it has a steel core. But SS109, M855 and M855A1 and M80A1 all have steel cores. Now back in the 1940s 1950s even into the 1960s and even into 1970s that was enough. But its the eve of the 2020s and guess what, It’s not. As you can see in this video the so called AP Norinco 7.62x39mm fails to penetrate.
What happened is that the steel core is not dense enough to break through. All it’s kinetic energy is turned against itself and poof. The jacket and core are pulverized into powder.
Now how do you get around this? Well you could try and go bigger a bigger round has more mass and if you go big enough that vest will be smashed. Of course the problem is that is impractical. There are some .300win mag AR15 type rifles but they are heavy. Uncontrollable in rapid fire and pack small magazines that are difficult to carry large amounts of ammo.

The other way to go is to look back at tanks.
In the later period of world war 2 the German Panthers and Tigers caused the M4 Sherman Problems. The 75mm gun in Sherman could be long barreled to a point but it’s AP shell like most tanks of its age was a solid shell.
Now they could have gone up to a 76mm and they did but still had problems penetrating until they went to high velocity Armor piercing shells. These are built of a solid high density core of tungsten carbide alloy surrounded by a lighter density metal jacketed in a copper.

This scaled down is basically the description of the M61 round and the basis of other modern AP rounds a high density tungsten core jacketed in copper. As that impacts a strike plate of ceramic materials the copper is pulverized but that tungsten core is dense enough that it keeps going it isn’t destroyed it keeps going just like a tanks Sabot round it has the mass and velocity to work through the armor and get to the soft fleshy material under it.
That’s why it would out penetrate M2 30.06. Because M2 30.06 was designed to penetrate thin steel plate of the type found and used in the 1930s but can’t coupe with modern composite armor. You might as well compare a 120mm shell to a world war 2 vintage gun type.
Because in its day it was AP but today vs modern types it comes up lacking.
 

Iron Man

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Well close to it.
On battle rifle class. This is a higher pressure round type. The terms assault rifle and battle rifle are really sorta more hype than practical but generally a assault rifle is a rifle with selective fire that fires a intermediate caliber round that is, high velocity medium to low caliber, low mass ammunition.
A Battle rifle is a round that fires a full power rifle round that is higher velocity medium to high caliber with a higher mass. This .277 caliber round would have a higher mass and higher velocity.
Hence the comparison to 270 WSM.
Yes, I'm well-aware of the distinction. The 6.8mm being a larger caliber doesn't mean it is "battle rifle" caliber, which has usually been understood to be 7.62x51, 30-06, 7.62x54, 7.92x57, etc.

This scaled down is basically the description of the M61 round and the basis of other modern AP rounds a high density tungsten core jacketed in copper. As that impacts a strike plate of ceramic materials the copper is pulverized but that tungsten core is dense enough that it keeps going it isn’t destroyed it keeps going just like a tanks Sabot round it has the mass and velocity to work through the armor and get to the soft fleshy material under it.
That’s why it would out penetrate M2 30.06. Because M2 30.06 was designed to penetrate thin steel plate of the type found and used in the 1930s but can’t coupe with modern composite armor. You might as well compare a 120mm shell to a world war 2 vintage gun type.
Because in its day it was AP but today vs modern types it comes up lacking.
Actually, 30-06 AP is also tungsten. And just because a round is a newer "AP" round doesn't mean it can automatically bypass the laws of physics. You are basically claiming here that "6.8mm is a new round, obviously it's going to out-penetrate the old 30-06 AP". First of all, there is no current requirement for a new 6.8mm AP version. Second, even if there is/will be, you will need to prove it can out-penetrate the 30-06 AP version by testing. Third, the 6.8mm is not even intended to replace the 7.62x51 round, it's intended to replace the 5.56x45 round, so playing up the 6.8mm's abilities and comparing it to full-size rounds is not even necessary, nor was it ever intended by the US military.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

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Actually, 30-06 AP is also tungsten
No it’s not. The rating on the Level IV armor is vs the M2 30.06 round that is just manganese magnesium alloy steel.
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After 1958 the US had switched over to 7.62x51mm which is again a match in performance to 30.06. They never introduced a 30.06 round for the US with a tungsten core.

Second the there are two requirements XM1186 which is a general issue round based off the same reasoning as the Improved penetration round IE M855A1 and the XM1184 which is listed only as “Special Purpose” if you go back and look at the talk of infantry small arms around that time however there was specific mention of work on AP. As such its not that there isn’t any it’s that it’s just not listed yet.
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However at the moment they announced going full bore on NGSW they also told the US Congress that the 5.56x45mm round was not able to defeat Level IV. For a short period a requirement was issued for a Interim Service rifle in 7.62x51mm. However in very short order this was canceled as the service stated it was already working on a long term solution the NGSW program.
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Third you are correct it is at the moment not being talked of one or the other vs 7.62x51mm.
The directly addressed weapons to be replaced are the 5.56x45mm M4A1 and M249. However the effective range of the M4A1 is listed by the Army at between 300 to 500 meters. These weapons are projected for effective ranges double that. Between 600 to 1000 meter. The effective range of a 7.62x51mm is about 600-800 meters.
If they are at double the effective range of the 5.56x45mm then they are operating at ranges on par 600 meters to 25% better 1000 meter than 7.62x51mm If that is the case then 7.62x51mm is not as relevant.
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7.62x51mm was replaced as the main issue of US infantry in the forms of the M14 and M60 by the M16 in the 1960s, M4 in the 2000’s and M249 in the 1980s.
They have only continued in specialized roles. The DMR rifle M14, M110 Sniper use in M24, M40, M110, Special Operations in Afghanistan adopted it back for longer range engagement by the Mk17, armored and aircraft weapons in the M240 and M134, ceremonial use in M14 and as a fire support weapon M60, Mk48 and M240.
However in recent years some of this has started to change.
The Marines and Socom have begun looking to a heavier GPMG aimed at replacing M60, M240 with a weapon in .338 Norma magnum.
US Socom has tested and looks to adopt the 6.5mm Creedmoor round to rechamber M110 , Mk20 Scar rifles and Mk48 mod2.
Snipers in the US Army, USMC, USAF, USN, US SOCOM have moved to the M2010, Mk 13 mod 7 and Barrett MRAD Advanced Sniper rifle in primary .300 win mag.
 

Iron Man

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No it’s not. The rating on the Level IV armor is vs the M2 30.06 round that is just manganese magnesium alloy steel.
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After 1958 the US had switched over to 7.62x51mm which is again a match in performance to 30.06. They never introduced a 30.06 round for the US with a tungsten core.
Never? Cuz there's a bunch for sale on Gunbroker from multiple sellers:
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Second the there are two requirements XM1186 which is a general issue round based off the same reasoning as the Improved penetration round IE M855A1 and the XM1184 which is listed only as “Special Purpose” if you go back and look at the talk of infantry small arms around that time however there was specific mention of work on AP. As such its not that there isn’t any it’s that it’s just not listed yet.
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However at the moment they announced going full bore on NGSW they also told the US Congress that the 5.56x45mm round was not able to defeat Level IV. For a short period a requirement was issued for a Interim Service rifle in 7.62x51mm. However in very short order this was canceled as the service stated it was already working on a long term solution the NGSW program.
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Third you are correct it is at the moment not being talked of one or the other vs 7.62x51mm.
The directly addressed weapons to be replaced are the 5.56x45mm M4A1 and M249. However the effective range of the M4A1 is listed by the Army at between 300 to 500 meters. These weapons are projected for effective ranges double that. Between 600 to 1000 meter. The effective range of a 7.62x51mm is about 600-800 meters.
If they are at double the effective range of the 5.56x45mm then they are operating at ranges on par 600 meters to 25% better 1000 meter than 7.62x51mm If that is the case then 7.62x51mm is not as relevant.
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7.62x51mm was replaced as the main issue of US infantry in the forms of the M14 and M60 by the M16 in the 1960s, M4 in the 2000’s and M249 in the 1980s.
They have only continued in specialized roles. The DMR rifle M14, M110 Sniper use in M24, M40, M110, Special Operations in Afghanistan adopted it back for longer range engagement by the Mk17, armored and aircraft weapons in the M240 and M134, ceremonial use in M14 and as a fire support weapon M60, Mk48 and M240.
However in recent years some of this has started to change.
The Marines and Socom have begun looking to a heavier GPMG aimed at replacing M60, M240 with a weapon in .338 Norma magnum.
US Socom has tested and looks to adopt the 6.5mm Creedmoor round to rechamber M110 , Mk20 Scar rifles and Mk48 mod2.
Snipers in the US Army, USMC, USAF, USN, US SOCOM have moved to the M2010, Mk 13 mod 7 and Barrett MRAD Advanced Sniper rifle in primary .300 win mag.
Not sure how any of this changes the fact that the 6.8mm is meant to replace the 5.56x45 and not the 7.62x51, which means there is no need to compare it to either that round or the 30-06 AP round, nor is there any requirement that the 6.8mm should have superior penetration capabilities vis-a-vis the 30-06 round with respect to level 4 armor.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

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Never? Cuz there's a bunch for sale on Gunbroker from multiple sellers:
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So wait some Yahoo on gun broker claims its a tungsten cored round so it must be true? BULL SIT
It’s either steel cored of someone loaded 7.62x51mm M61 tips in 30.06 cases. Which is like cross breading a unicorn with an Arabian.

Level IV standard is set on defeating M2 30.06 That is the bullet that set the standard not some mythical 30.06 being sold by someone on the inter webs. The rating is to beat M2 set by the NIJ then adopted by others.
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2.5 Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle)
Type IV hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. Military designation M2 AP) with a specified mass of 10.8 g (166 gr) and a velocity of 878 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2880 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).
Type IV flexible armor shall be tested in both the “as new” state and the conditioned state with .30 caliber AP bullets (U.S. Military designation M2 AP) with a specified mass of 10.8 g (166 gr) and a velocity of 878 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2880 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).
For a Type IV hard armor or plate insert that will be tested as an in conjunction design, the flexible armor shall be tested in accordance with this standard and found compliant as a stand-alone armor at its specified threat level. The combination of the flexible armor and hard armor/plate shall then be tested as a system and found to provide protection at the system’s specified threat level. NIJ-approved hard armors and plate inserts must be clearly labeled as providing ballistic protection only when worn in conjunction with the NIJ-approved flexible armor system with which they were tested
M2 AP
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Not sure how any of this changes the fact that the 6.8mm is meant to replace the 5.56x45 and not the 7.62x51, which means there is no need to compare it to either that round or the 30-06 AP round, nor is there any requirement that the 6.8mm should have superior penetration capabilities vis-a-vis the 30-06 round with respect to level 4 armor.
I never said superior I Said it should penetrate.
But you keep trying to make the 30.06 both less and more than it is. Ineffective vs Level IV plate, yet More powerful than 7.62x51mm, In both You are Wrong.
M2 AP was the standard set for Level IV armor with a steel core. 7.62x51mm M61 is Tungsten cored and beat Russian Level IV plate in a informal test by In Range in the videos I provided. 7.62x51mm NATO is spec’s to match 30.06.

The Question isn’t if it’s superior to 7.62x51mm or 30.06 because you have miss judged the rounds in question.
A Tungsten cored 7.62x51mm round will penetrate.
The question is if it’s superior to 5.56x45mm with a Tungsten core.
 

Iron Man

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So wait some Yahoo on gun broker claims its a tungsten cored round so it must be true? BULL SIT
It’s either steel cored of someone loaded 7.62x51mm M61 tips in 30.06 cases. Which is like cross breading a unicorn with an Arabian.
I like how you use the singular "Yahoo", when there are several yahoos on Gunbroker selling tungsten-cored M2s. I guess they're all liars and you're the only one in the know.

Here's another yahoo on another site:
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In fact if you google it there are yahoos all over the internet saying there are M2s with tungsten. The actual fact of the matter is that pre-1942 M2 cores have tungsten in them, and that post-1942 the US military switched to a molybdenum-manganese core that equaled the tungsten in penetrative ability. Apparently there is still alot of tungsten M2s around, given so many yahoos selling them. ;)

Regardless, your assertion that tungsten penetrates and others don't is not some fact of physics or some kind of ballistics law of nature. Tungsten may penetrate better all other things being equal, but actual round penetration depends on a whole host of factors, bullet composition being only one of them.

Level IV standard is set on defeating M2 30.06 That is the bullet that set the standard not some mythical 30.06 being sold by someone on the inter webs. The rating is to beat M2 set by the NIJ then adopted by others.
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M2 AP
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I never said superior I Said it should penetrate.
But you keep trying to make the 30.06 both less and more than it is. Ineffective vs Level IV plate, yet More powerful than 7.62x51mm, In both You are Wrong.
M2 AP was the standard set for Level IV armor with a steel core. 7.62x51mm M61 is Tungsten cored and beat Russian Level IV plate in a informal test by In Range in the videos I provided. 7.62x51mm NATO is spec’s to match 30.06.

The Question isn’t if it’s superior to 7.62x51mm or 30.06 because you have miss judged the rounds in question.
A Tungsten cored 7.62x51mm round will penetrate.
The question is if it’s superior to 5.56x45mm with a Tungsten core.
Please list ANYWHERE where I said 30-06 is automatically superior to 7.62x51. After you do that, tell me why that even makes a remote bit of difference when 6.8 isn't designed to out-penetrate EITHER the 7.62x51 OR the 30-06. Your claim is that 6.8 will penetrate level 4 armor. You have not demonstrated this at all.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

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Again you source sales.
Not documentation.
So here
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And they did, all of 4% Wow a whole 4% of the round. With such a low percentage it didn’t make a difference at the time because its such a small amount not to matter.
Before you break into a victory lap modern AP tungsten cored rounds are 84% Tungsten.
M2 AP will punch 10.6mm in a 22.2mm RHA plate at 91m

A modern 5.56x45mm M995 Tungsten cored round will penetrate 12mm of RHA at 100m

A M993 7.62x51 Tungsten cored AP round penetrates 16mm of RHA at 400m a 20mm RHA plate at 100m
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Wait so a 5.56mm round will go deeper than a 30.06 round!! My god in heaven
Right, it's basically a .270 WSM. I'm not sure how this makes it a battle rifle class ammo or gain the ability to outpenetrate the 30.06 AP round.
Yeah, there is no way the 6.8mm round was developed to defeat level 4 armor, Chinese, Russian, or otherwise. 30.06 AP will outpenetrate any version of 6.8.
You keep coming back and listing 30.06 yet I keep pointing out that the M2 is the inferior round now moved goal post. The 7.62x51mm AP round has a much higher Tungsten content than the M2 30.06.
Vs Any Ammo type below this Level IV plate and it’s equivalents are all but invincible. You need to go to .338NM to penetrate.

Next Okay So TE that does not mean that 6.8 “Bleed-moor”would AP any better than a 7.62 or 5.56x45mm
A good quality Level IV M995 round at 100m.
M995 5.56x45mm has a penetrator that weights 2g Yet against some lower quality Level IV plate it will. The reason it’s just a little to light. But for consistency you need more weight more tungsten but the 5.56x45mm round doesn’t have much room to grow.
A M993 7.62x51 Tungsten cored AP round has a penetrator weight of 5.4g. Clearly enough mass.
It will defeat Level IV armor this is however an older round. Meant to be replaced by XM1158 which has an even larger core.
Okay so? A 6.8mm round is a low drag round with higher velocity than 5.56mm it can hold a larger Tungsten Penetrator in theory it should weigh as much as 7 grams that gives The potential for a 5g penetrator which is why I say it should penetrate.
 

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