What other options does Germany have for a fifth gen platform right now?
If you've decided to become an American client state you may as well use their planes.
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
If you've decided to become an American client state you may as well use their planes.
Intrepid
Major
I think behind these statements one finds the reason for acquiring a small number of the only available state-of-the-art jets: to create a suitable environment for such fighter aircraft. Later on, further F-35 or comparable fighter aircraft of European origin can be integrated more quickly.
Does Germany need a "stealth attack" plane? We are in the NATO, so we are a "defensive" joint-venture.
The USA bought modernized F15 in the last years. Some of these and modernized F16 would be completley satisfcatory to the needs of the German Luftwaffe.
To me there are two "problems": With their old fleet of Tornados the German Army officials and politicans developed an inferiority complex. Now, with the money at hand, they want to show the whole of Europe, that they are able to buy the most advanced war plane. Doesn' t matter about technical issues or price. Germans to the front...it is just a "Penis-issue"!
Secondly, the Germans are in fear of the Russians. It is completely ridiculous, but the generations after WWII grew up with: "The Russians ante portas". At the moment, the German press is steadily painting the picture of a nuclear war on the walls. The companies who sell private security bunkers cannot meet the demands. Although I am German, I am ashamed to death.
The German state is an American client, because politics decided so to be. Not me.
I sure hope that Germany and the rest of Europe can be free again so they can behave responsibly on the international stage. Also, as far as i know, Germans do not fear Russians. On the other hand, German transatlanticists/US-agent/Quislings might fear Russia. It is somewhat ironic that Germany still has not recognized the threat that the Neocon/Neolib US poses to Europe and the rest of the world with their wars and coups of aggression. I was really disappointed when Germany did not sanction their bosses in Washington DC for funding and organizing the coup in Ukraine in 2014.
Welcome to the world of politics.
The Germans in general did have a solid base of sympathy for Russia. This is now over! Russia is the aggressor and might even attack other countries. These are the news since the beginning of the war. All the Ukrainian officials are in German televison to state, that Ukraine is defending Europe and peace. And that Germany has to bring sacrifice to help them. It is completely crazy, bute media rules everything here. The "public opinion" towards the Russians sadly changed.
Are you really disappointed of Germany and the Ukraine coup in 2014? It is a system, the house of Europe, the golden calf. They worhsip it and it feeds all of them very well. Germany is not a free state, we only have an armistice with the USA and Russia, but no peace treaty (2+4 convention).
Germany always hat a conscription. To please the left ideologists Ms. Merkel repelled it in 2011. The result is, that the German Army suffers of young talents. We actually do not have enough young people serving in the army.
I doubt, that Germany will be able to man more than 35 F-35 now and in the future. Lets wait and see.
The 2014 Euromaidan in Ukraine was just one in a long string of foreign funded political coups. The "color revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia preceded it. Rose Revolution in Georgia in 2003. Orange Revolution in Ukraine in 2004.
Both countries (Georgia and Ukraine) were former republics of the Soviet Union and sent troops to help US in illegal occupation of Iraq.
Then there was a statement by NATO that Ukraine and Georgia would be members of NATO in the future issued in 2008.
Russia-Georgia conflict happened in late 2008 after NATO announcement. The Georgian leader, thinking he had NATO backup, attacked the separatist regions of Georgia which broke away after the fall of the Soviet Union. And got his ass handed to him by Russian troops still using Soviet era equipment in a large counterattack. He is currently in a jail in Georgia after trying to agitate another coup to overthrow the current government. Which is not pro-Russian but Georgian people are sick of getting thrown into these kinds of conflicts with their larger neighbor.
The whole point of F-35A purchase is the nuclear sharing agreement with US to use the B-61 bomb. But it will be used as a trojan horse to increase purchases in the future. You will see. If Germany had any idea of independent European security policy they should have just bought the Rafale and entered a nuclear sharing agreement with France to use the ASMP-A missile or the future ASN4G. Similar to US nuclear sharing agreement. But like your friends in Twitter said Germany has shown in previous purchases like with helicopters that it is not interested in having an independent European security policy.
The US is currently trying to get Iran to sign the nuclear deal i.e. JCPOA v2.0. Part of the deal is that Russia will manufacture uranium fuel rods for civilian nuclear reactors using Iranian provided enriched uranium at 5%. That Russia will then take the spent fuel roads and process them. I will let you in a little secret. US Westinghouse had been working on making uranium fuel roads for Ukraine Soviet built VVER reactors which might be compatible (or not) with Iranian nuclear reactor. There is a facility to build them in Sweden. Another was being built in Ukraine. Notice Iran is not allowed to have these kinds of facilities which direcly handle nuclear fuel to make fuel rods. But the US AFAIK has no facilities to reprocess nuclear fuel after disposal. Other than Russia only France has these facilities. Not including Russia in the deal also means Iran's second nuclear reactor currently under construction by the Russians would stall. So you will find the Iranians to be mildly uncooperative, to say the least, with this deal. Especially since next US President in 2-3 years might just cancel everything again. It takes at least 6 years to build a civilian nuclear reactor.
I got kind of off-topic here but this deal will have important implications for future nuclear security arrangements worldwide.
Both countries (Georgia and Ukraine) were former republics of the Soviet Union and sent troops to help US in illegal occupation of Iraq.
Then there was a statement by NATO that Ukraine and Georgia would be members of NATO in the future issued in 2008.
Russia-Georgia conflict happened in late 2008 after NATO announcement. The Georgian leader, thinking he had NATO backup, attacked the separatist regions of Georgia which broke away after the fall of the Soviet Union. And got his ass handed to him by Russian troops still using Soviet era equipment in a large counterattack. He is currently in a jail in Georgia after trying to agitate another coup to overthrow the current government. Which is not pro-Russian but Georgian people are sick of getting thrown into these kinds of conflicts with their larger neighbor.
The whole point of F-35A purchase is the nuclear sharing agreement with US to use the B-61 bomb. But it will be used as a trojan horse to increase purchases in the future. You will see. If Germany had any idea of independent European security policy they should have just bought the Rafale and entered a nuclear sharing agreement with France to use the ASMP-A missile or the future ASN4G. Similar to US nuclear sharing agreement. But like your friends in Twitter said Germany has shown in previous purchases like with helicopters that it is not interested in having an independent European security policy.
The US is currently trying to get Iran to sign the nuclear deal i.e. JCPOA v2.0. Part of the deal is that Russia will manufacture uranium fuel rods for civilian nuclear reactors using Iranian provided enriched uranium at 5%. That Russia will then take the spent fuel roads and process them. I will let you in a little secret. US Westinghouse had been working on making uranium fuel roads for Ukraine Soviet built VVER reactors which might be compatible (or not) with Iranian nuclear reactor. There is a facility to build them in Sweden. Another was being built in Ukraine. Notice Iran is not allowed to have these kinds of facilities which direcly handle nuclear fuel to make fuel rods. But the US AFAIK has no facilities to reprocess nuclear fuel after disposal. Other than Russia only France has these facilities. Not including Russia in the deal also means Iran's second nuclear reactor currently under construction by the Russians would stall. So you will find the Iranians to be mildly uncooperative, to say the least, with this deal. Especially since next US President in 2-3 years might just cancel everything again. It takes at least 6 years to build a civilian nuclear reactor.
I got kind of off-topic here but this deal will have important implications for future nuclear security arrangements worldwide.
Last edited:
Intrepid
Major
I don't think so. I am German and have Russian friends. Not Russia or "the Russians" are the aggressors, but the Russian leadership. I can tell that apart. In 1993 I was in Vyazma for two weeks to fly AN-24 and L-39. In the evenings I sat at the table with people I would have shot at ten years earlier as a soldier if war had broken out. A horrible thought, because we were friends, not enemies.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Oh for…
First the CIA didn’t and couldn’t generate an entire civil war out of thin air like a magic. Ukraine was a ticking bomb it had been one
Since 1997. Just as most of the former Warsaw Pact has been. The fuse being the Former Soviet Kleptocracy that held power and wished to remain linked to its oligarch power base in Moscow. In the 1990s and early 2000s NATO tried to start the process of inviting a number of states into NATO including Ukraine, Georgia and even Russia. Russia including Putin sat in on NATO council meetings however the views of foreign affairs differences appeared where when NATO was willing to allow the division of the former Yugoslav federation well Russia wanted the state to remain. When NATO offers were made in Georgia and Ukraine is when suddenly pro Russian Separatists forces appeared and created a boarder dispute. Anyone who knows NATO policy knows that NATO can’t allow states in who have existing internal or external conflicts to join as new members. As doing so instantly starts a war.
hence why the Donetsk, South Osetia, Luhansk and Crimea drag on.
NATO is US centric but that’s not a weakness it’s it’s justification. The US didn’t impose that on Europe it was wanted by them. NATO was founded on 3 things. “To keep the US in the Russians out and Germany down.” Those words are a paraphrase of the first NATO General Secretary Lord Ismay. The Lord part should tell you he was British not American.
At the time, even today European nations had the first and second world wars in living memory. Conflicts before that too. That “Germany down” could literally be any other nation in Europe, as at one point or another they all Played game of Thrones. Today under NATO some nations in mutual defense don’t even have armies. They offer medical support and supply depots.
NATO has a US flavor as then and now the US was willing to put in the most bank and was seen as impartial. The US had participated in two occupations of Germany and left. No long term territorial claims other than graveyards. Russia, well we see what Russia wants from former Warsaw Pact states.
F35, Germany is part of the Nuclear sharing agreement. Done. Tornadoes are antiquated.
Typhoon isn’t rated to carry B61. It would take to long and cost to much to justify.
Rafale would never be offered as such. If you want those then might as well try and negotiate a Franco-Germanic Nuclear deal. Good luck with that.
Gripen same problem as Typhoon. To expensive to get B61, As Belgium found.
F15E makes no sense as it’s main capability set is basically identical to Typhoon so then why have bought Typhoon? In almost every way Typhoon is a Euro F15.
F16 is back in production but by the time Germany got position for delivery it would likely be in the beginning of the next decade. Which is about when they would get F35 hypothetically.
Super Hornet and oh yeah this whole list would be expensive with the need for SEAD birds to support the mission.
So F35 is the most bang for the buck and the mission.
First the CIA didn’t and couldn’t generate an entire civil war out of thin air like a magic. Ukraine was a ticking bomb it had been one
Since 1997. Just as most of the former Warsaw Pact has been. The fuse being the Former Soviet Kleptocracy that held power and wished to remain linked to its oligarch power base in Moscow. In the 1990s and early 2000s NATO tried to start the process of inviting a number of states into NATO including Ukraine, Georgia and even Russia. Russia including Putin sat in on NATO council meetings however the views of foreign affairs differences appeared where when NATO was willing to allow the division of the former Yugoslav federation well Russia wanted the state to remain. When NATO offers were made in Georgia and Ukraine is when suddenly pro Russian Separatists forces appeared and created a boarder dispute. Anyone who knows NATO policy knows that NATO can’t allow states in who have existing internal or external conflicts to join as new members. As doing so instantly starts a war.
hence why the Donetsk, South Osetia, Luhansk and Crimea drag on.
NATO is US centric but that’s not a weakness it’s it’s justification. The US didn’t impose that on Europe it was wanted by them. NATO was founded on 3 things. “To keep the US in the Russians out and Germany down.” Those words are a paraphrase of the first NATO General Secretary Lord Ismay. The Lord part should tell you he was British not American.
At the time, even today European nations had the first and second world wars in living memory. Conflicts before that too. That “Germany down” could literally be any other nation in Europe, as at one point or another they all Played game of Thrones. Today under NATO some nations in mutual defense don’t even have armies. They offer medical support and supply depots.
NATO has a US flavor as then and now the US was willing to put in the most bank and was seen as impartial. The US had participated in two occupations of Germany and left. No long term territorial claims other than graveyards. Russia, well we see what Russia wants from former Warsaw Pact states.
F35, Germany is part of the Nuclear sharing agreement. Done. Tornadoes are antiquated.
Typhoon isn’t rated to carry B61. It would take to long and cost to much to justify.
Rafale would never be offered as such. If you want those then might as well try and negotiate a Franco-Germanic Nuclear deal. Good luck with that.
Gripen same problem as Typhoon. To expensive to get B61, As Belgium found.
F15E makes no sense as it’s main capability set is basically identical to Typhoon so then why have bought Typhoon? In almost every way Typhoon is a Euro F15.
F16 is back in production but by the time Germany got position for delivery it would likely be in the beginning of the next decade. Which is about when they would get F35 hypothetically.
Super Hornet and oh yeah this whole list would be expensive with the need for SEAD birds to support the mission.
So F35 is the most bang for the buck and the mission.
Yes. I am sure it would have been impossible to certify a fighter bomber like the Eurofighter to drop a nuclear gravity bomb. Which is what B-61 is. Latest B-61 is basically a nuclear gravity bomb with JDAM package.
The whole idea that you "need" to have the F-35 for a bombing mission in a European theater of operations is based on idea it can penetrate Russian air defenses. Which with current Russian air defense network with overlapping fields of Kontayner, Voronezh, and Rezonans radars is certainly not guaranteed. None of those were online when F-35 came out.
The whole idea that you "need" to have the F-35 for a bombing mission in a European theater of operations is based on idea it can penetrate Russian air defenses. Which with current Russian air defense network with overlapping fields of Kontayner, Voronezh, and Rezonans radars is certainly not guaranteed. None of those were online when F-35 came out.
Last edited:
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Permissive Action Link. Google it.
depolying a nuclear weapon isn’t as simple as a gravity bomb. This isn’t the 1950s when all you needed was a fuse and a bomber.
the package may be in a JDAM but the war head is specifically designed not to go off unless the codes match. The PAL system is American, the Warhead is American. To get it into a fighter means integration of the system under American control. Farther it then has to be certified for it. As just bolting weapons Willy nilly under the hard points isn’t going to work.
Given how those systems have performed in Syria and Ukraine… I think F35 stands a very good chance.