F-22 Raptor Thread

Brumby

Major
It looks like you guys had been active while I was sleeping. Lol.

IMO, it is important to view the recent document as some preliminary idea and more importantly take a holistic view.

It seems to me "PCA" is the operative word and so I would briefly comment around it. We should note the concept of air superiority as described in the document and I quote "air superiority is often envisioned as a theater-wide condition. In highly contested environments, such a conception may be unrealistic and unnecessary. Air superiority is only needed for the time and over the geographic area required to enable joint operations. The specific amount of time and space required varies significantly across scenarios, mission objectives, and phases of conflict. Accordingly, capability development for air superiority must provide options for commanders to array their forces across a range of durations and geographies."

The document then went on to describe two major threat vectors in the 2030 battlespace and beyond. I would not repeat but just briefly point out that the threats will be multi domain and multi axis. It is therefore logically that solutions will be multi domain and multi faceted and it would be unrealistic to assume that burden is placed on a single platform.

I think your worldview is too bound to platform solutions and is missing the forest in which this document is attempting to envision. Success in the future battlespace will be fought over multi domain and having the supporting assets and infrastructure. The demands are comprehensive which the document have laid out. In view of the projected threats from hypersonic, advance ballistic missiles, et al, winning the battlespace requires being dominant across all spectrum and domain. For example, destroying an aircraft carrier or refueling tankers would mean all the forward deployed assets will eventually be lost regardless of how capable your F-35/F-22's are.
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
Brumby I tend to agree with your assessment I just worry that there is nowhere near enough air asserts that will be available to obtain any air superiority at all resulting in a greater loss of life and treasure that's why I like the restart of the 22 so much along with it being the best at what it does and from what I've read I'm not alone in those thoughts
 

Brumby

Major
Brumby I tend to agree with your assessment I just worry that there is nowhere near enough air asserts that will be available to obtain any air superiority at all resulting in a greater loss of life and treasure that's why I like the restart of the 22 so much along with it being the best at what it does and from what I've read I'm not alone in those thoughts
Your concerns are valid and I am sure are shared by many.

There are limited funds and ever increasing competing demands. It doesn't help when you have a present administration focusing on social issues like transgender spending and global warming.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
It looks like you guys had been active while I was sleeping. Lol.

IMO, it is important to view the recent document as some preliminary idea and more importantly take a holistic view.

It seems to me "PCA" is the operative word and so I would briefly comment around it. We should note the concept of air superiority as described in the document and I quote "air superiority is often envisioned as a theater-wide condition. In highly contested environments, such a conception may be unrealistic and unnecessary. Air superiority is only needed for the time and over the geographic area required to enable joint operations. The specific amount of time and space required varies significantly across scenarios, mission objectives, and phases of conflict. Accordingly, capability development for air superiority must provide options for commanders to array their forces across a range of durations and geographies."

The document then went on to describe two major threat vectors in the 2030 battlespace and beyond. I would not repeat but just briefly point out that the threats will be multi domain and multi axis. It is therefore logically that solutions will be multi domain and multi faceted and it would be unrealistic to assume that burden is placed on a single platform.

I think your worldview is too bound to platform solutions and is missing the forest in which this document is attempting to envision. Success in the future battlespace will be fought over multi domain and having the supporting assets and infrastructure. The demands are comprehensive which the document have laid out. In view of the projected threats from hypersonic, advance ballistic missiles, et al, winning the battlespace requires being dominant across all spectrum and domain. For example, destroying an aircraft carrier or refueling tankers would mean all the forward deployed assets will eventually be lost regardless of how capable your F-35/F-22's are.

Possibly archaic Bub, but you can't drive nails without a hammer! in the real world I mean, I know your gonna shoot them out of a rail gun?? am I right??? LOL
 

Brumby

Major
Possibly archaic Bub, but you can't drive nails without a hammer! in the real world I mean, I know your gonna shoot them out of a rail gun?? am I right??? LOL
Very true. I agree you still need the good old hammer. Frankly I believe if the USAF continues to invest in the F-22 and F-35 they will be sufficiently capable to meet future threats and the utility of a 6th gen platform is highly questionable.

I think the potential for the F-35 is underestimated. In terms of BVR, the F-35 with its superior sensors and SA will dominate against any potential adversary. In a future fight even in any WVR engagement, the advent of lasers will provide it with the edge. The importance of high maneuverability in future engagement is overestimated against lasers because no matter how capable is your kinetic maneuverability you just can't out maneuver light.

The concept of penetrating counter air while lacking details, I would speculate that the development effort would revolve around the F-35 and its teaming with an unmanned stealth wingman. An unmanned UAV would provide the longer penetrating reach but how that would actually work in reality I am unable to comprehend.
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
I do remember Edward Hermann saying in the documentary. "air power " that the current generation of fighters could well be the last manned military combat aircraft which could open up a whole new debate now wouldn't it
 
It looks like you guys had been active while I was sleeping. Lol.

...
hopefully we all noticed, in for example https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-22-raptor-thread.t6557/page-75#post-400415:
The unclassified version of the “Air Superiority Flight Plan 2030” includes a harsh assessment of the USAF’s growing limitations against an array of future airpower threats.
it's anybody's guess what's inside of the classified version, anyway
the thing is around 2030 the production of New Generation Aircraft ... will be something like one hundred (100) copies for something like twenty billion (2E10) $ YEARLY ...
(I'm sorry for repeating myself) my point is we're approximately in the middle now between when New Generation Aircraft projects started (around 2000) and when the benefits of investing half of a trillion will be reaped (after 2030)
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
It looks like you guys had been active while I was sleeping. Lol.

IMO, it is important to view the recent document as some preliminary idea and more importantly take a holistic view.

It seems to me "PCA" is the operative word and so I would briefly comment around it. We should note the concept of air superiority as described in the document and I quote "air superiority is often envisioned as a theater-wide condition. In highly contested environments, such a conception may be unrealistic and unnecessary. Air superiority is only needed for the time and over the geographic area required to enable joint operations. The specific amount of time and space required varies significantly across scenarios, mission objectives, and phases of conflict. Accordingly, capability development for air superiority must provide options for commanders to array their forces across a range of durations and geographies."

The document then went on to describe two major threat vectors in the 2030 battlespace and beyond. I would not repeat but just briefly point out that the threats will be multi domain and multi axis. It is therefore logically that solutions will be multi domain and multi faceted and it would be unrealistic to assume that burden is placed on a single platform.

I think your worldview is too bound to platform solutions and is missing the forest in which this document is attempting to envision. Success in the future battlespace will be fought over multi domain and having the supporting assets and infrastructure. The demands are comprehensive which the document have laid out. In view of the projected threats from hypersonic, advance ballistic missiles, et al, winning the battlespace requires being dominant across all spectrum and domain. For example, destroying an aircraft carrier or refueling tankers would mean all the forward deployed assets will eventually be lost regardless of how capable your F-35/F-22's are.

Possibly archaic Bub, but you can't drive nails without a hammer! in the real world I mean, I know your gonna shoot them out of a rail gun?? am I right??? LOL
hopefully we all noticed, in for example https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-22-raptor-thread.t6557/page-75#post-400415: it's anybody's guess what's inside of the classified version, anyway

(I'm sorry for repeating myself) my point is we're approximately in the middle now between when New Generation Aircraft projects started (around 2000) and when the benefits of investing half of a trillion will be reaped (after 2030)

No problem, we all do that, especially those of us with children, LOL! obviously I think airpower 2030 is a good start, maybe a bit cynical to motivate the lazy politicians who would rather play Santa Claus and pass out money to voters??? to get off their butts and get serious about defending this country.

I wouldn't be surprised if a president Trump did re-open the Raptor line, I rather doubt a Hillary would do anything of real value for the military, look at the mess she and Barack Hussein made of Benghazi, just dumb bunnies, not enough brains between the two to screw in a light bulb!

Stoopid X 2 for this pair!
 
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