F-15 Eagle Thread

[Jeff Head]

Re: F15SE conversion form F15E

One: The F15E is not a F15D with bombs it was a New Air frame enhanced with increased use of Titanium and reinforced with more powerful engines and radar. Calling it a variant of the F15D is like calling the F/A18E/F just a variant of the F18C/D.

Two: You Try to compare it to the Eurofighter. Truth is the Euro-fighter was behind scheduled, and though innovative in that it was a first in Europe a lot of it was proven with the Eagle and Falcon.

Three: By Contrast the SE is a incremental update. It's a retrofit of the same type seen as the USN is working into F/A18E/F. part of a line not a totaly new aircraft but a upgrade based on massive modifications to specs of the Eagle, the vast majority of those mods happened with the F15E.

Fourth: I think you are over estimating the intended RCS reduction for the SE the Stealth of the SE is targeted specifically for head on engagements. the heart of the fighter will remain the F100-PW-229 turbofan the same unit used in the latest re engines of the F16 and used in the F15E None of the Production art or concept write ups or press releases mention Serpentine shaped inlets.

Fifth: The tail section we are talking about is the rear vertical stabilizers. those stabilizers are mounted to the Fuselage IE removable when needed and replaceable, further more in the E's stabilizers they are made of Aluminum and composted well the engine housings they are mated to are titanium. With Boeing dropping them from development for whatever reason that part of our argument seems no longer needed.

Sixth: The wings are not needed to be replaced. It's optimized for frontal RCS reduction a wing is horizontal. attachment of Bolt on sections flaring the nose into the intakes and intakes into the wings using saw tooth edges. those conformal weapons bay / tanks also help by changing the geometry of the fuselage. Their internal carriage keeps enemy radar from seeing the main missile armament not just reducing Drag but also stremlining the cluttered F15E weapons load.

By far I feel the most impressive goal is the Avionics, new radar, new flight controls and new weapons controls.

I believe all of what you say is true.

But right now there are no plans...or even major proposals to upgrade the F-15E fleet to F-15SEs.

The entire F-15E fleet is planned to receive several upgrades however that will get them part of the way there and to extend their service life and capability through the 2030s.

According to the F-15 system program office (SPO) at Robins AFB, Georgia, the

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include the following:

1) Adding the new Raytheon APG-82(V)1 AESA radar.
2) Adding a new advanced display core processor II (ADCP II) mission computer.
3) Adding a new electronic warfare system called the Eagle passive/active warning and survivability system (EPAWSS).
4) Upgrading to Mode 5 identification friend or foe (IFF).
5) Giving the front seat pilot the joint helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS).
6) Fatigue testing to determine the timing for a service life extension program for all 219 F-15Es.

That program office also indicated that:

"There is currently no projected requirement for a major structural mod program. Numerous structural improvements have been incorporated throughout the life of the F-15E," he says. "Many parts have been redesigned to eliminate structural issues identified during service."

So, right now, no plans for the types of modifications to the F-15E that would be becessary to bring it up to an F-15SE.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F15SE conversion form F15E

One The F15E is not a F15D with bombs it was a New Air frame enhanced with increased use of Titanium and reinforced with more powerful engines and radar. Calling it a variant of the F15D is like calling the F/A18E/F just a variant of the F18C/D.

You are wrong . Despite changes in structure , avionics and engines , F-15E , D and B basically have same shape - unstealthy shape designed in late 60's . That is way F-15E , D and B basically have same RCS without RAM applied .

On the other hand F/A-18 E and F were specifically designed to reduce RCS of F/A-18 C and D (despite being larger) .Shape of the Super Hornet is different then shape of the Hornet . You cannot retrofit F/A-18 C and D with some elements from F/A-18 E and F to make them more stealthy .

F-15SE compared to F-15E would be the same thing Super Hornet was to regular Hornet , same name , different plane . Unfortunately , USAF decided against F-15SE , so only options for this plane remains foreign buyers .

Btw , differences between Super Hornet and regular Hornet :

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[airsuperiority]

F-15 Thread!!!

I hope we can combine all the F-15 threads into this one, since officially some of us members are very interested in the F-15 ourselves.

 

[bd popeye]

I hope we can combine all the F-15 threads into this one, since officially some of us members are very interested in the F-15 ourselves.

Yep.. done and there's a bunch of F-15 post I'll move here..

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: F15SE conversion form F15E

You are wrong . Despite changes in structure , avionics and engines , F-15E , D and B basically have same shape - unstealthy shape designed in late 60's . That is way F-15E , D and B basically have same RCS without RAM applied.

Uh, Thunderchief, when TerraN_Empire says that "the F15E is not a F15D with bombs it is a New Air frame enhanced with increased use of Titanium and reinforced with more powerful engines and radar," he is absolutely correct and is defintely not wrong.

The F-15E is a new build, and, in your own word's it has:

changes in structure, avionics and engines.

This means it is NOT an F-15D...which is exactly what TerraN_Empire said.

It is a new, purpose built aircraft, with a differnt role and mission than the F-15D. They may look "basically the same," and they do, but they are different aircraft, with a different build line.

The F/A-18E/F is also a different, new build aircraft from the F/A-18C/D. It too had those changes and it too has a different build line and designation. Even if those two also look "basically the same."

Now, this does not change the fact that the F-15E is in fact a 4th gen aircraft like the F-15D with a greater RCS than newer 5th gen aircraft. I do not believe anyone is discounting or arguing that fact, and you are absolutely correct in this. But that can be true at the same time that the F-15E and the F-15D are different.

When TerraN_Empire indicates that the F-15E is a different aircraft than the F-15D, it is self evident that he is correct and not "wrong." If he were wrong, the aircraft would not be the F-15E, it would be the F-15D. And it is not.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F15SE conversion form F15E

It is a new, purpose built aircraft, with a differnt role and mission than the F-15D. They may look "basically the same," and they do, but they are different aircraft, with a different build line.

I didn't say they were the same aircraft , I did say they have same shape (with minor differences) and that is why RCS of F-15 D and E are basically same (~ 10 sqm ) . F-15SE on the other hand has different shape and so its RCS is reduced .

The F/A-18E/F is also a different, new build aircraft from the F/A-18C/D. It too had those changes and it too has a different build line and designation. Even if those two also look "basically the same."

There are notable visual differences between F/A-18E/F and F/A-18C/D .

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Btw , I have read interesting opinion from some guy on certain forum , about reasons why did South Koreans choose F-15SE instead of F-35 . It goes something like this : F-35A for USAF is advertised to have less then 0.0001 sqm RCS on X-band . On the other hand , Boeing claims they managed to reduce F-15SE frontal RCS to about same level as F-35 . In his opinion , there is no way F-15 RCS could be reduced so much (from 10 sqm to 0.0001 sqm ) to be better then other 4.5 gen fighters ( Rafale , Gripen , Super Hornet , Eurofighter etc ... ) which are between 0.1 and 1 sqm . His conclusion - F-35s for export to "second-tier allies " (South Korea , Turkey , Italy etc ... ) would not have same RCS as those for US and "first-tier allies " (Israel , Great Britain ... ) because some of top-secret materials will not be used on them . Their frontal RCS would be somewhere between 0.1 and 0.01 sqm . That is why F-15SE may be better option for them then "watered-down" F-35 .
Worth pondering , even if not true .

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Cutting to our old argument. The F15Se looks like a F15. Their is no indication of a massive redesign of the intakes and structure involved. Its even stated repeatedly that in side a few hours it can be operating as a non stealth type. As for the rcs being from the 1980s so is the F22's.
now your new point. The flaw in that argument is why would this super secret wonder material be offered on the F15SE but not the F35?
it makes no logical sense.

 

[Equation]

It looks like it's comes down to just two fighters of choice for the South Korean Air Force.

Companies reportedly made bids within the 8.3 trillion won budget
By Kim Kyu-won, staff reporter
The field of candidate models for the South Korean Air Force’s next fighter jet has been narrowed down to the Eurofighter Typhoon 3 and the F-15SE.
Defense Acquisition Program Administration spokesman Baek Yoon-hyung said on Aug. 16 that the bidders had come in below the total project budget of 8.3 trillion won (US$7.5 billion), with the next selection procedures now set to begin.
“The project is still ongoing, so I can’t say who the companies were,” Baek added.
But according to sources in the Ministry of National Defense and the companies in the bidding, the two companies were EADS, which makes the Eurofighter, and Boeing, which makes the F-15SE. Both reportedly made bids that were within the budget.
This means F-35A maker Lockheed Martin, which is subject to US regulations on foreign military sales (FMS), was unable to give a definite bid.
As a result, EADS and Boeing both emerged with candidate models, while the US government, selling on behalf of Lockheed Martin, effectively ruled itself out.
Baek said provisional contracts would be drafted for the two companies, with a selection on final suitability based on a comprehensive weighted assessment in four categories.
The results are to be reported to the defense project promotion committee sometime in mid-September, he added. The committee is chaired by Minister of National Defense Kim Kwan-jin.
Baek said the committee may choose to adopt the results, reject them, or request a conditional resubmission.
The biggest question now is whether the committee will go with the model selected by DAPA in its report. Given South Korea’s alliance with the US, most observers are expecting Seoul to choose the F-35A, which is currently under development there.
Between the two, the Eurofighter is known to have superior air combat capabilities. EADS pledged to produce 53 of the 60 aircraft targeted for purchase by the South Korean government in the country, while investing US$2 billion in the Korean-model fighter project.
The F-15SE, a remodeled version of the F-15K currently used by the Air Force, is reported to have superior armed capabilities and offer the best value in terms of purchase cost and maintenance. Perhaps its biggest advantage is the South Korea-US alliance and recent moves to postpone the transfer of wartime operational control to South Korea.

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[Air Force Brat]

Re: F15SE conversion form F15E

I didn't say they were the same aircraft , I did say they have same shape (with minor differences) and that is why RCS of F-15 D and E are basically same (~ 10 sqm ) . F-15SE on the other hand has different shape and so its RCS is reduced .



There are notable visual differences between F/A-18E/F and F/A-18C/D .

-----------

Btw , I have read interesting opinion from some guy on certain forum , about reasons why did South Koreans choose F-15SE instead of F-35 . It goes something like this : F-35A for USAF is advertised to have less then 0.0001 sqm RCS on X-band . On the other hand , Boeing claims they managed to reduce F-15SE frontal RCS to about same level as F-35 . In his opinion , there is no way F-15 RCS could be reduced so much (from 10 sqm to 0.0001 sqm ) to be better then other 4.5 gen fighters ( Rafale , Gripen , Super Hornet , Eurofighter etc ... ) which are between 0.1 and 1 sqm . His conclusion - F-35s for export to "second-tier allies " (South Korea , Turkey , Italy etc ... ) would not have same RCS as those for US and "first-tier allies " (Israel , Great Britain ... ) because some of top-secret materials will not be used on them . Their frontal RCS would be somewhere between 0.1 and 0.01 sqm . That is why F-15SE may be better option for them then "watered-down" F-35 .
Worth pondering , even if not true .

No, its not worth pondering even if its not true, unless you just want to bash the US, and undermine South Korea, the US is not going to "water down" its only production fifth gen on any of our partners, to suggest we would do so is an outright lie, and not the way we do business, there remains yet some virtue in this nation, that's why we have allies and partners. The F-15SE will no doubt be a great aircraft, but it will not likely come close to the L/O capabilities of the F-35, this is about MONEY, the F-35 will be pricey, and it will be a completely new platform in all aspects, at least the F-15SE will share some commonality with the F-15s they already have vast experience operating! brat

and quoting some nameless source on a nameless forum, that's pathetic, name your source ace!

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: F15SE conversion form F15E

I didn't say they were the same aircraft...

When TerraN_Empire made this statement:

"The F15E is not a F15D with bombs, it is a new air frame enhanced with increased use of Titanium and reinforced with more powerful engines and radar."

Your reply was:

"You are wrong."

My response and comment was simply that TerraN_Empire was not wrong...and he wasn't.