Effectiveness of Active Anti-ATGM Defences

f.hind said:

Is the Chinese approach to ATGM defence completely novel, or has the idea of a laser dazzler been floated by anyone else? It removes the danger to infantry, but presumably limits its effectiveness to use against laser guided muntitons.

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It's not entirely novel, f.hind, although it is being put to different use by the Chinese. About 25 years ago or so, the US developed a laser system that deliberately targeted troops on the battlefield, literally (and permanently)blinding troops who were not equipped with specially designed "Eye-Armour" protective glasses. The test results (I assume they were performed on animals, and not humans) were so horrifying that the system was never authorized for actual production and deployment.

As for active ATGM defense, I believe the Chinese are the first to go this far with lasers in this regard. Other countries, notably Britain, are pursuing even more exotic technologies.

Norfolk said:

It's not entirely novel, f.hind, although it is being put to different use by the Chinese. About 25 years ago or so, the US developed a laser system that deliberately targeted troops on the battlefield, literally (and permanently)blinding troops who were not equipped with specially designed "Eye-Armour" protective glasses. The test results (I assume they were performed on animals, and not humans) were so horrifying that the system was never authorized for actual production and deployment.

As for active ATGM defense, I believe the Chinese are the first to go this far with lasers in this regard. Other countries, notably Britain, are pursuing even more exotic technologies.

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Very interesting. I remember reading that the chinese have been working on man portable laser systems designed for the same purpose. Makes you wonder how capable the box-of-tricks on the ztz-99 is. For example using it to rapidly sweep a designated area to catch out any infantry who left their aviators at home.

f.hind said:

Very interesting. I remember reading that the chinese have been working on man portable laser systems designed for the same purpose. Makes you wonder how capable the box-of-tricks on the ztz-99 is. For example using it to rapidly sweep a designated area to catch out any infantry who left their aviators at home.

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Problem is that weapons designed to permanently blind opponents are illegal under the Geneva Conventions...

Norfolk said:

It's not entirely novel, f.hind, although it is being put to different use by the Chinese. About 25 years ago or so, the US developed a laser system that deliberately targeted troops on the battlefield, literally (and permanently)blinding troops who were not equipped with specially designed "Eye-Armour" protective glasses. The test results (I assume they were performed on animals, and not humans) were so horrifying that the system was never authorized for actual production and deployment.

As for active ATGM defense, I believe the Chinese are the first to go this far with lasers in this regard. Other countries, notably Britain, are pursuing even more exotic technologies.

Click to expand...

The laser dazzler is almost totally worthless against a modern foe.

Russian missiles with SACLOS have RF backup and reciver heads at the rear of the weapon to prevent laser jammers from getting into the command LOS.

The Hellfire is not a beam rider but cues on the target illuminated by a coded laser from a high altatitude.

The Javalin is a FnF weapon

even older TOW systems are imune

lasers won't stop IR homers, or TV guided weaposn like the Maverick ASM.

zraver said:

The laser dazzler is almost totally worthless against a modern foe.

Russian missiles with SACLOS have RF backup and reciver heads at the rear of the weapon to prevent laser jammers from getting into the command LOS.

The Hellfire is not a beam rider but cues on the target illuminated by a coded laser from a high altatitude.

The Javalin is a FnF weapon

even older TOW systems are imune

lasers won't stop IR homers, or TV guided weaposn like the Maverick ASM.

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Don't forget some versions of the Hellfire are radar guided... which renders any laser dazzler useless...

zraver said:

The laser dazzler is almost totally worthless against a modern foe.

Russian missiles with SACLOS have RF backup and reciver heads at the rear of the weapon to prevent laser jammers from getting into the command LOS.

The Hellfire is not a beam rider but cues on the target illuminated by a coded laser from a high altatitude.

The Javalin is a FnF weapon

even older TOW systems are imune

lasers won't stop IR homers, or TV guided weaposn like the Maverick ASM.

Click to expand...

==The laser dazzler is not for the missiles themselves, but the optical instruments on the missile launching platforms and their operators.

King_Comm said:

==The laser dazzler is not for the missiles themselves, but the optical instruments on the missile launching platforms and their operators.

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The problem is that it is a reactive system; once it detects a laser, it will aim its laser right at the source of the laser.

If there is no laser source being pointed at the tank, the laser dazzler will not activate against it. Missiles such as Javelin, which homes in on infra-red signatures, and TOW, which is wire-guided, do not give off a detectable targeting signature besides the launch signature of a anti-tank missile. The same applies with Maverick, which is infra-red optical imaging, and the AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire is radar guided. And against tanks, once a tank's ballistic computer has sent out the ranging laser beam and figured out the distance (which occurs within seconds), the tank is about to fire anyways.

With the majority of modern Russian ATGMs using laser based homing, and the ZTZ-99 being only in service in Beijing and Shenyang MRs (I think?), I doubt the system is designed to face Hellfires and Javelins.

It's used against the operators and launch platforms of the ATGMs, not the missiles. We don't know what kind of sensors activate the laser. For example, it may direct the laser toward a radar guided ATGM. And infantry gives off IR signatures too -- I believe Chinese doctrine tend to mix infantry and tanks less than western doctrine.

zraver said:

The laser dazzler is almost totally worthless against a modern foe.

Russian missiles with SACLOS have RF backup and reciver heads at the rear of the weapon to prevent laser jammers from getting into the command LOS.

The Hellfire is not a beam rider but cues on the target illuminated by a coded laser from a high altatitude.

The Javalin is a FnF weapon

even older TOW systems are imune

lasers won't stop IR homers, or TV guided weaposn like the Maverick ASM.

Click to expand...

It all just goes to show that active ATGM defenses just aren't worth the expense. As far as I know, the only active ATGM defense that has real promise is the Electromagnetic Shield that Brtiain (and I think the US, perhaps others) are developing. Apparently the test results have been quite gratifying (not just satisfying) against CE weapons although the problems of being able to reliably generate sufficient power on a tracked vehicle under very difficult field conditions where maintenance and supplies (and TIME) are often greatly lacking I believe will take some years yet to perfect.

As I stated in an earler post, the US sought to get around the problem of blinding lasers by developing "Eye-Armor" protective glasses (specially coated shooting glasses) that protected wearers from laser damage to the eyes.