Dong-Feng, J-9 and Co. - failed projects

Gollevainen said:

At least in my obinion those military equipments that never saw actual service altough being very promising desings and perhaps even revolutionar tends to be one of the most interesting things. XB-70, TRS.1, Mirage 4000 and so on...adding it to my weird enthusiaism of inventing these long-term "what-if" scenarious, sometimes you get quite interesting mixes....China shares also one of those...exspecially the J-9 fighter.


Anyway , I once came agross this story in "Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft" (Aerospace Publishing, 1994) about CATIC J-9. It was the spark that eventually led me here...giving hard time to various people in chinese military forum...And the plane still remains more of a mystery for me. While surfing on other chinese related forums i've managed to find out bit more but still many important fact concerning the project remains "out there".

So what i'm trying to say here is that why not using this forum as it should be and let's see if we can come up something covering the J-9 project as well as it is possiple with our somewhat limited resources. So if you have anything additional info on J-9 project, post it here.

I first toughted of posting this to the Vip-forum, but our vip members (no offence in anyway) seems to be more conserned about land warfare and naval matters than aviation issues.

For starter, heres the text from the book i mentioned above:



In the book, there where also nice linedrawing of the latter configuration.

Few things that concerns me most are these:

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

here's basic data of Ws-6 and R-29:

WS-6
Country: China
Manufacturer: LM
Engine mode:l WS6
Take-off rating (dry): 71.1 kN (15,991 lb) D
Take-off rating (wet): 122.1 kN (27,445 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 2,100 kg (4,630 lb)
Airflow: 155 kg (342 lb)/s
Arrangement: 3F, 11A, a/b
BPR: 1
Diameter: 1,370 mm (53.94 in)
Length: 4,654 mm (183.2 in)
Classification: Jet Engine

R-29-300
Jet Engine ID: 163
Country: Russia
Manufacturer: Soyuz
Engine model: R-29-300
Take-off rating: (dry) 78.5 kN (17,635 lb) D
Take-off rating: (wet) 122.3 kN (27,500 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
Airflow: 110 kg (243 lb)/s
Arrangement: 5A, 6A, a/b
BPR: 0
Diameter: 912 mm (35.9 in)
Length: 4,960 mm (195.0 in)
Classification: Jet Engine
(engine data form venik's aviation page)

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes? Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance? Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

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vincelee said:

J-9 was a delta wing interceptor in direct competition with the J-8. J-8 was chosen because of the more modest demands placed on the Chinese aviation industry. J-9 was cancelled after the selection process, and thus cannot benefit from the J-8II upgrade. However, J-10 actually benefits from J-9'
s design experience.

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crobato said:

My understanding is that both engines were certainly well beyond the metallurgical capabilities of China that time. Both engines have a thrust that is right in the same range as the PW F100/AL-31F but the design heritage is at least a generation behind. Even the R-29 was pushing the boundaries for the Russians.

Between the two engines, the R-29 is probably the most likely one, at least originally, and the WS-6 may have come later. At the time the J-9 was being concieved, there was an emphasis on high altitude, high speed anti bomber interception, and that favors a turbojet design over a turbofan. Not just the diameter is smaller, which reduces the aircraft cross section, but a turbojet is generally more efficient than a turbofan at higher speeds.



Not much at all. Both were in fact, parallel projects. The J-8II was most probably the backup in case the J-9 failed.



Oh definitely its more than true. For evidence, look no further than the Minsk theme park and the planes displayed on the deck. The MiG-23s are in fact more than just intact, they are in mint condition still sporting their Egyptian camouflage.



No.



No. Projects were parallel.



Started around the late sixties and officially terminated sometime in the early eighties. It actually started as a tailed delta---with aerodynamics that was ancestral from the MiG-21---then turned into a canard delta. At some point, the concept also changed from side intakes, to a square underslung intake, no doubt the inspirational basis leading later to the J-10.




There is also the original J-12 project, of which there is actually one flying prototype built. Basically the plane uses just one of the J-6 WP-6 engines, and is only a clear weather day fighter with a round inlet nose. But even in the sixties, a radarless day fighter only no longer has any relevance, so it was cancelled. Other projects also include the original J-13, which is analogous to the Mirage F1.

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Hmmm ... not real but a very good CG

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crobato said:

Q-6 is originally an artist speculation of future PLAAF aircraft by Popular Mechanics or some similar magazine published way back in the seventies. Its not clear how authentic the concept is, it seems more like an extrapolation. Out of the designs featured in that magazine, which was a few I recall, incluing a Q-5 like fighter, the one dealing with a larger, VG wing attacker using Spey engines (the deal was inked already at that time) is the one that turned out closest to reality in the form of the JH-7, though the pictured design didn't look like it.
...

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