Does Taiwan Need An MBT?
- Thread starter Finn McCool
- Start date
Yesterday I was at the beach. It was about 4-6 feet. I don't think it gets much bigger than that in the Taiwan Strait and, based on my personal experience, I don't think that would stop a tank.
Taiwan does use tanks for beach defence. Its older M-48s and other Korea-Vietnam era American tanks are assigned to act as moblie bunkers and fire on incoming ships and tanks. Since these tanks wouldn't be of much use beyond that anyway that is a good way to use them. But it would be a waste for a modern MBT. I'm sure and MBT could sink a ship, so lets stop arguing about that.
Here's a good historical example-The Battle of Kuningtou. In 1946, after the Nationalists had withdrawn to Taiwan, the PLA attacked Kinmen, as a stepping stone to Taiwan itself. In a remarkable feat for a force with no real navy, they were able to thousands of men on Kinemn. The Communists were slightly outnumbered by the ROC forces, as it would likely be in the initial hours after a landing by the PLA on Taiwan now. After overcoming the beach defences and advancing under the cover of mainland artillery, the PLA troops were met by a large force of ROC infantry and American made M5A1 Stuart Light tanks. Without many anti-tank weapons the Chinese were unable to stop the attack and were driven back to the water's edge, or into surrounding villages and hilltops. The ROC 18th Army was able to do to the PLA what the Germans were unable to do on D-Day. They exploited the gaps between landing forces with armoured counterattacks and caused the operations after the initial landing to become fights for survival, not coordinated advances inland. The next day more PLA troops landed, but did not find and organized beachead, only pockets of PLA troops fighting for survival against armoured ROC attacks. The second wave was decimated on the beaches with the help of the ROCAF and ROCN, and the next day all surviving PLA troops on Kinmen surrendered. The "moral" of the story is that tanks help would help to transfer momentum to the Taiwanese side in a modern invasion of Taiwan. Fun fact-The M5A1 tanks that the ROCA had on Kinmen were used as steamrollers against PLA human wave attacks after the ranout of ammunition.
Taiwan does use tanks for beach defence. Its older M-48s and other Korea-Vietnam era American tanks are assigned to act as moblie bunkers and fire on incoming ships and tanks. Since these tanks wouldn't be of much use beyond that anyway that is a good way to use them. But it would be a waste for a modern MBT. I'm sure and MBT could sink a ship, so lets stop arguing about that.
Here's a good historical example-The Battle of Kuningtou. In 1946, after the Nationalists had withdrawn to Taiwan, the PLA attacked Kinmen, as a stepping stone to Taiwan itself. In a remarkable feat for a force with no real navy, they were able to thousands of men on Kinemn. The Communists were slightly outnumbered by the ROC forces, as it would likely be in the initial hours after a landing by the PLA on Taiwan now. After overcoming the beach defences and advancing under the cover of mainland artillery, the PLA troops were met by a large force of ROC infantry and American made M5A1 Stuart Light tanks. Without many anti-tank weapons the Chinese were unable to stop the attack and were driven back to the water's edge, or into surrounding villages and hilltops. The ROC 18th Army was able to do to the PLA what the Germans were unable to do on D-Day. They exploited the gaps between landing forces with armoured counterattacks and caused the operations after the initial landing to become fights for survival, not coordinated advances inland. The next day more PLA troops landed, but did not find and organized beachead, only pockets of PLA troops fighting for survival against armoured ROC attacks. The second wave was decimated on the beaches with the help of the ROCAF and ROCN, and the next day all surviving PLA troops on Kinmen surrendered. The "moral" of the story is that tanks help would help to transfer momentum to the Taiwanese side in a modern invasion of Taiwan. Fun fact-The M5A1 tanks that the ROCA had on Kinmen were used as steamrollers against PLA human wave attacks after the ranout of ammunition.
Last edited:
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
Impossible. Me and istvan were both debating about the kind of damage tanks could do to a ship. But we both agree whtat their is no way a tank can shink a ship, especially if the ship has bulkheads.
Finn, in youir story, the mainlanders did not have any anti-tank weaponry. That is unlikely to be the case in case of an invasion now. Plus, the mainland would have a navy for support and reinforcments
MIGleader said:
Yes, I know. Its just an example. But I would point out that the ROC would have larger, better equipped tanks and now weapons systems like ASMs that would also greatly change to situation. Equipment has changed so much since then that saying "Well now the PLA has... " or "Now the ROC has..." is pointless. I was using it as an example of tactics, which has not changed much. The ROC esploited gaps between landing beaches, attacked agressively which forced the PLA to respond to their actions instead of moving inland, successfully prevented the 1st wave from securing the high ground around the beaches and forced the 2nd wave to land in an impossible position. It serves as a lesson in what the ROC still must do to defeat a landing.
Finn McCool said:
Quite true Finn… Fact remains that PRC troops would try to hold small piece of land and that they would be outnumbered, without any real armor, under fire from everything ROC has.
While equipment is different now then it was 60 years ago, goal remains the same. Counter attack whit one modern tank brigade, supported whit IFVs, infantry and artillery units is still best way to wipe out invasion force…
Especially if we know that initial wave would probably suffer heavy loses and since PRC would need some time to bring reinforcements (that would take some time if we look at PRC amphibious assets)…
So naturally that Taiwan needs few modern tanks (M-60Sabra or any other tank they can get)… Maybe rapid reaction force whit one or two armored brigades armed whit modern tanks and supported by new IFV (some armed whit 105mm gun), and older tanks as strategic reserve force…
Ps. Miggy we agreed about sinking bigger ships, I still think that small amphibious crafts and smaller LST like Yunan or type 271 are quite woundable to tank fire… and they still make majority of PLAN amphibious force…
Last edited:
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
I believe the PLA will use entirely LSTs and Zubrs, and maybe some new ships in the first wave of an invasion. Shipyards are building such ships at a rapid pace, and soon the marines wont need any small vessels.
with tanks, there comes the problem of supplying them and moving them. While the PLA might not have dedicated tank destoryers, LGBs and even dumb bombs can destroy the roads and the trucks that bring fuel. Without these, the tanks are useless.
with tanks, there comes the problem of supplying them and moving them. While the PLA might not have dedicated tank destoryers, LGBs and even dumb bombs can destroy the roads and the trucks that bring fuel. Without these, the tanks are useless.
MIGleader said:
Well as I said in any thread about PLAN until they get modern amphibious ships they are not ready for modern amphibious assault… any ship that has to land at heavily defended beach is woundable… That’s why every western country abandoned LST concept…
MIGleader said:
And truck based SSM can sink PLAN amphibious fleet before they reach shore or SAMs can bring down fighters before they destroy roads… Accurse you will now say that SEAD fighters will destroy SAMs and that attack fighters will destroy SSMs and we will end up in discussion about shortage of Pepsi on ROC side and what that will mean for morale of ROC troops…
Lest stay as far as possible from that discussion, its quite useless… Like you said there are too many factors and if we go that road it will finish in other pointless invasion scenario… We are really O.T. already and there is no need to go even more O.T.
So does Taiwan need tanks? I think they do need them. If tanks are useless why almost every country in the world has some? Simply they still cant be replaced whit any other asset…
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
:rofl: OMG that was funny!!! Alright, well avoid that discussion.
Well, even LPDs need to get somehwat close to shore to lauch the landing ships and vehicles, which are vulnerable as you say...but we wont get into that.
I think I make a valid point when I bring up the logistics of supporting new, advnaced tanks. There will need to be supply trucks that carry spare parts for the tanks. Other trucks will need to bring in fuel. , and yet others ammunition. what happens when a tanker is wounded? All of this will take a toll on taiwanese traffic. So my point is that taiwan must learn how to handle and support a big fleet of tanks before aquring them. This should make good duscussion.
renmin
Junior Member
I dont think a invasion in taiwan for the Chinese would even require MBTs, for one thing, they are tough to move and only a few can be transported at a time. Next comes supply, for all the ammo and fuel, a large base must be set up. I dont think the PRC wants to spend that much money. Taiwan is just a small island, either way, they can not aquire a huge force of MBTs, its just not practical. I dont think large tanks would be involved at all, unless the US comes in with their Abrams fleet, then the T-99s would have to be rolled in.