Does Taiwan Need An MBT?

Just wondering, is the chinese ability that bad???

back on topic: IMO m60 upgrade such as sabra is pretty good for the taiwanese force. Right now, basically an AT missile can disable a tank so i don't see a point of getting a new tank. With the m60 upgrade package, i think is already a good challenge for the landing force's armours.

ahho The PLA capability is not bad. Don't get me wrong. Taiwan government know that once the PLA forces landed on Taiwan, Taiwan is over. It's only a matter of time before the island run out of ammunition and supply. Indeed, the Sabra is a very good upgrade package for the M60A3. With its modular passive armor and 120mm smoothbore gun, the Sabra is capable of taking on the type 99. However, Israel is a close military partner w/ China, especially when Israel was trying to promote its Elta 2035 radar for China's J-10 fighters. It is unlikely China is allowing such a upgrade to be made. I still think that Tank should not be a main priority for the military. It should focus on obtaining advance fighters destroyers and air defence to achieve air and sea superioirty until reinforcement.

just making sure on what you guys are saying, do you mean AT capability at lading (marines) are not to standard world level???


hmm so are there any alternative upgrade package to the sabra?? Say upgrading the gun to be able to fire gun-fired atgm. I am pretty sure that there was an upgrade by the US on m60 which was pretty good. Somone in this forum in the us military mentioned about this before

Hsiung-Feng said:

ahho The PLA capability is not bad. Don't get me wrong. Taiwan government know that once the PLA forces landed on Taiwan, Taiwan is over. It's only a matter of time before the island run out of ammunition and supply. Indeed, the Sabra is a very good upgrade package for the M60A3. With its modular passive armor and 120mm smoothbore gun, the Sabra is capable of taking on the type 99. However, Israel is a close military partner w/ China, especially when Israel was trying to promote its Elta 2035 radar for China's J-10 fighters. It is unlikely China is allowing such a upgrade to be made. I still think that Tank should not be a main priority for the military. It should focus on obtaining advance fighters destroyers and air defence to achieve air and sea superioirty until reinforcement.

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The US has a similar package, it was made by General Dynaimcs around the Gulf War. It was called the M-60-2000. I also hear that Ukraine has some sort of package too.

Of course, Taiwan would never be able to beat the PLA after it had gained a firm lodging on the coast and was able to reinforce. It is just impossible. Therefore, Taiwan's only chances would be to try to maintain air superiority (or at least prevent the PLAAF from gaining it), destroying as much of the PLANs amphibious capability as possible and maintaining a large threat to PLAN cross-strait shipping and, if the PLA does get ashore, wipeing out the beachead before it can be enlarged, reinforced, and broken out of. The first day or two afther the initial landing would be the only reasonable time frame for this attack assuming that the Chinese were indeed able to get around the ROCAF and ROCN and begin assembling forces on Taiwan at a reasonable pace. Having a good armoured force is necessary for the ROCA to play its part in the islands defence and attack the landing with as much force as could be brought to bear, driving them back into the sea before the PLA could build up its forces to "critical mass". To do that, the ROCA needs to be able to pucnh through the defences quickly, which would probably include the PLAN Marines armed with AT launchers, Type 63s, and IFVs. That is why the ROC needs at least upgraded M-60s. It is to provide them with the capability to win the battle after (but not long after) a landing.

I wold reccomend the Sabra upgrade or some equivalent move. Also, oldest tanks should be replaced with a decent IFV with tank-killing ability, like the German Marder. Taiwan could do that indigenously.

But all of this is pointless unless the ROCAF gets some more AMRAAMs. Until they do that, all purchases and new weapons are pointless.

Hsiung-Feng said:

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Taiwan is also too small for operating big modern MBT such as the Abramhams. Its heavy weight, (69.54Tons) can also be damaging when operating on the road, which would certainly damaged the road and slow down other vehicles, such as transport. Unlike Europe and the Middle East, where vast amount of dessert and plain are excellent terrain for MBT engagement, there is no major plains or dessert in Taiwan, which is why, Taiwan has yet to obtain any new MBT fitted with 120mm gun.
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*faint*

I lived in Taiwan for 12 years and can say that the island is big enough to field any modern MBT, and there's plenty of flat-land in the western region.

Even in high-density urban settings like the Gaza strip, Israelis send in their heavy MBT's anyway. The Merkava is what, 65 tons? I think those giant vehicles used to lay tracks for the new Taiwan high speed rail weights more than that.

IMO there's no geographic reason why the ROCA cannot field heavy armor. However there are cost, source, & strategtic/effectiveness considerations. It's unlikely that anyone other than the US would sell MBT's to ROC. The ROC could source components and put their own MBT together -- it can't be more difficult than the IDF. But would expensive heavy MBT's be any more useful than upgraded M60's to the ROCA?

adeptitus, RoC have already assemble their own tank based on the M60 chasis. In fact, the CM11 and CM12 were the combination of such a vehicle. The chasis is based on the M60, while the turret is from the M48 with improved ballistic co mputer and fire control similar to the M60. Indeed, Israel tanks were able to manuver through Gaza, but this is Taiwan. Since you said they have been living in Taiwan, you would know that there are cars parking on the side of the street almost all the time. Sometimes, in smaller street, there are barely any room for even sedan to go through. WE're not talking about single tank, but a full Tank bridgades with his support units, alone with infantry, i think you really are left with small space. Also, if it come down to urban warefore, there are many tall buildings in Taiwan that are excellent spot for anti tank missiles to be fired from. I personally think the M60A3 is an excellent tank and is capable of defeating the amphibious forces. The PLA is less likely going to use Type 99 or 96 for beach landing. But, when the RoCA fail to stop the Chinese invasion, TAiwan is pretty much over, even if Taiwan have M1, they would be completed surrounded by PLA navy without supply and M1 would be fighting on empty gas tank.

Finn, I agree with you that any taiwanese tanks cannot stop a PLA landing. However, they certainly can stall the PLA forces from reaching Taipei, giving more time for other Taiwanese airforce and army units to mobilize and launch a formal counter-attack.

Well, like I said, the only reason for Taiwan to have an MBT would be to launch a fast and hard attack against a Chinese beachead, before it could be signifigantly reinforced or expanded. And we all seem to agree that the first wave would only include lighter tanks, not Type 96s and Type 98s. Therefore, the upgraded M60, if supported by enough infantry and Cobras, etc. would probably be enough. Bigger, more powerful tanks would be nice, but as of now not completely necessary. It really depends on how and how quickly the Taiwanese commander uses them.

Mig-You're basically right, but I believe Taiwan needs tanks for the purpose of launching a counterattack like the one the Germans failed to launch on D-Day. However, tanks would serve to delay the Chinese advance on Taipei, which would give more time for a possible US intervention to make a difference.

There are alot of options that Taiwan can go for in the anti-armor category. I think that the best 'bang for your buck' choices would consist of upgrading their existing Cobra fleet to fire the Hellfire series of atgms, and possibly their Kiowa's also, which already fire the TOW. They could also choose to purchase some of the US Army's Stryker series of APCs, which can be fitted with either atgms or a rifled 105mm high velocity gun. In the actual tank area, their best choice would probably be to upgrade their existing M60's, and maybe get a small number of the basic M1A1. It would also not be a bad idea to get some IFVs, like the USMC's LAV-25, which can also be fitted with atgms, and with the 25mm Bushmaster can probably mission kill most of China's amphibious tanks and other armored vehicles.