CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Power projection means nowadays that you are not concerned with defence. For the next ten or twenty years the main task of the Chinese flattops and its escorts is in time of war to keep opposing forces away from China or destroy them if they are too near.
The British flattops are to serve as RN served in 2011 to help destroy a weak country. RN can't defend them in a larger war.
The British flattops are to serve as RN served in 2011 to help destroy a weak country. RN can't defend them in a larger war.
It's not really my opinion that all of the nations I mentioned have air forces that significantly outnumber the 36 fighters that a theoretical CV-19 could carry by more than double, and therefore could "mess" with it.
Pop3's explanation of the different types of displacement measurements used by the PLAN:
Normal displacement:
- Full ballast tanks and pipes.
- Full load of crew, foodstuffs, potable water, munitions, other supplies.
- 50% load of ship fuel, aviation fuel, water, lubricating oil.
In this case for a carrier would his standard for normal displacement include a full airwing?
If it includes a full airwing then a 68,000 ton "normal" displacement may correspond to a 75,000 ton full displacement, but if it doesn't then I can see it as corresponding to a full displacement closer to 80,000 tons.
I think if we envision "mess with" as a having the sheer capability to outmatch an 002 and its airwing, presuming a well coordinated, deliberate military operation with a sound political rationale for it, then I think it goes without saying that there are many nations in the world with the capability who would be able to "mess with" an 002 pattern carrier -- but really those same nations with an airwing significantly more than the fighter load of a USN CVN could "mess with" a CVN as well, if one is measuring only their blunt capability.
But I think he meant "mess with" as in an 002 (and it's associated escorts I presume) would field sufficient capability that the nations in the region he described would be able to easily disregard the capability 002 and its airwing and would have to commit significant resources to counter 002 if they made the decision to try and do so.
It includes full airwing and combat complement. The only difference a normal displacement has with full displacement is the 50% fuel.
However, I don't understand why the existence or not of the airwing would result in a 5000-tonne divergence between your estimates.
"Significant" is a nondescript word that can be tailored to mean whatever you want it to mean. All of the nations that I mentioned would have to commit "significant" resources to attack the CV-18 if they decided they needed to defeat it, so why even bring up this point? My threshold for "mess with" is does a country have the military resources to neutralize this CBG? The answer for all of them is yes.
And no, once you move up to a USN CVN and its CBG, the game changes for several of the nations that I mentioned, so it's certainly not the same thing. Even on the face of it making a CV-18 CBG and a Nimitz CBG the same level of danger for these nations is preposterous to begin with.
Yeah, you're right a full airwing would only displace a few hundred extra tons anyhow.
Why even bring up this point?
Well back in #840 that point was just part of hkbc's overall post whose content was basically saying that a 30-40 airwing of J-15s would wield significant capability and a nation would have to commit significant resources to attack it.
In a way it is just stating what everyone already knows (attacking a carrier is hard) even if it is in a vague and non-specific way, but I don't see anything wrong with that.
Of course a US CVN presents a greater level of capability, and in this comparison of air force vs carrier airwing the USN CVN has a larger airwing than a 002 carrier. But if you were comparing it merely on the basis of a nation's air force versus the airwing size of a carrier, there are more than a few nations on your list whose air force is greater than that of a US CVN as well.
Which goes back to what hkbc wrote in #858 -- that if you commit enough forces you can obviously counter a carrier, its airwing and its escorts whether it's a CVN or an 002 pattern carrier.
But both 002 and a US CVN I think reach a level of capability, that as hkbc describes: "the cost will be such to give competing forces pause for thought rather than send most of it's airforce to try and wipe something out".