CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

by78

General
Perhaps "mistake" is the wrong term. During the development process you have to make decisions. Even if you find out later that another path could have been better, you cannot simply leave the path you have chosen. Those who follow the development at a distance can make different decisions.

If I recall correctly, the Chinese system runs on direct current whereas the American counterpart is on alternating current, so they are of very different designs. Technically, there is little for the Chinese to “learn from” the American counterpart.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The design deficiencies of the US EM catapults on the Ford have been been known for years now, specifically where all 4 of the catapult motors are permanently coupled to all 3 of the energy storage groups, which means a single fault in any of these subsystems requires the entire system to be powered down and flight operations to cease.

It would be incredible if the Chinese Navy wasn't aware of this and has installed electrical circuit breakers to allow individual subsystems to be isolated and fixed - so that flight operations can continue with the remaining subsystems.

So I think it is fair to say that the Chinese Navy is installing a more advanced EMALS system than the US Navy has with the Ford.

It is fair to say that it is probably different and intuitively you'd think they probably would have arranged it in a manner to try to avoid whatever flaws were a part of the USN EMALS and power management system on the Ford, but there's really no reason to overreach with such confidence yet for such a vital subsystem.

I think it would be safer to hold our horses on making such a broad proclamation without at least some credible rumours about how Fujian's EM catapults and associated power management systems are arranged.


A much safer and more defensible statement is that Fujian's EM catapults and power management system is likely different to that of the USN EMALS, but we do not know the full extent of how it is different and whatever strengths or flaws the two respective types may have compared to each other.
 

zszczhyx

Junior Member
Registered Member
thanks and could you provide a translation of the signs

i still cannot believe how China has mastered the EMALS when the USN is having so much trouble

unbelievable
From the interview with Ma Weiming by global times in 2017

环球时报:美国首艘采用电磁弹射系统的“福特”号航母花了21年时间才完成从研制到应用的过程,中国也需要这么久吗?
Global Times: It took 21 years for the USS Ford, the first U.S. aircraft carrier with an electromagnetic ejection system, to go from development to application. Will it take China that long too?

马伟明:只要方向正确,方法得当,那么进程可以大大缩短。
Prof. Ma: With the right direction and the right approach, then the process can be shortened considerably.

环球时报:美国“福特”级航母的经验显示,航母的电磁阻拦技术比弹射难度更高……(没问完的是中国是否有这方面研究)
Global Times: The experience of the US Ford class carriers shows that Electromagnetic arresting system for carriers is more difficult than catapulting ...... (what is not asked is whether China has researched this)

马伟明:不能这样下定论。我们用了1/5的时间就把阻拦做完了,你说哪个难度高?有了弹射的技术阻拦还难吗?弹射和阻拦是一个正一个反,解决了正,解决反不就容易了吗?
Prof. Ma: Can't come to such a conclusion. It took us 1/5 of the time to finish the blocking. Which one is more difficult? Now that electromagnetic ejection system has been developed, will it be difficult to develop Electromagnetic arresting system? (it's difficult to translate properly “正” “反” for me, anyone can help?)

环球时报:现在军舰上大量采用电气设备,特别是新一代采用全电推进系统(IEP)、电磁轨道炮和电磁弹射/阻拦设备的军舰,如何防止因对手引爆电磁脉冲炸弹导致完全失去战斗力?
Global Times: At present, modern warships use numerous electrical equipment, especially the new generation of warships using all IEP, electromagnetic rail gun and electromagnetic ejection / arresting equipment. How can we prevent the enemy from completely losing combat power due to the detonation of electromagnetic pulse bombs by the opponent?

马伟明:这个问题不太专业。脉冲弹是靠辐射,舰船全是铁壳屏蔽的,很难影响到内部系统。它又不是陆地大电网。另外谈到中国的综合电力,我们全(推进系统)是处于世界领先的位置。我们(技术)是中压直流,一步到位。美国目前是中压交流,还处于第一代水平,差我们一代。(他们目前)才开始做预研中压直流,要赶上我们是十几年以后的事情。(一项技术)领先不领先,先进不先进不是自己说的,需要世界同行评价,标准是客观存在的。
Prof. Ma: This is not a professional question. Pulse bombs rely on radiation, and ships are shielded by iron shells, which is difficult to affect the internal system. It is not a large land power grid. In addition, when it comes to China's integrated power, our IEP is in the leading position in the world. We (Our technology) are medium voltage DC, reach the goal in one step. The US is currently on medium voltage AC and is still at the first generation, a generation behind us.
At present (2017), they have only begun the pre research of medium voltage DC, and it will be more than ten years before they catch up with us. Whether a technology is leading or not, and whether it is advanced or not, is not self-evident. It needs to be evaluated by the world's peers. The standards exist objectively.
 

Intrepid

Major
Would be interesting to find out if this is an accurate description of the constellation of the two different EMALS.

In the American system, an exhausted energy store can be replaced by a still full energy store. With the assumed Chinese system, the aircraft to be launched would have to be brought to another catapult.

Unbenannt.png
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Ok “mastered” was not the right word to use but not mastered in the operational sense off course

mastered as in enough confidence with the matured technology breakthrough to actually make the big decision to actually install it on a Carrier

on top of that this carrier is non-nuclear it would be mean even more in terms of technology readiness level

Royal Navy made about 15 U-turns with their cats and eventually decided against it

yes it’s a very big deal
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China has the right to feel smug about the latest Carrier. No other country has master new technology is such a short span. What was 100 years development was compressed into just 10 years, exceeded all my expectation. I have to say they got a big break with Varyag a masterpiece of dagger and cloak operation that hoodwinked the west. If they were able scuttled the Varyag purchase, china has to wait for another 15 years! Another thing China already run and no need to crawl maybe not sprinting yet! And yes thanks Ukraini

 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Colonel
Registered Member
马伟明:不能这样下定论。我们用了1/5的时间就把阻拦做完了,你说哪个难度高?有了弹射的技术阻拦还难吗?弹射和阻拦是一个正一个反,解决了正,解决反不就容易了吗?
Prof. Ma: Can't come to such a conclusion. It took us 1/5 of the time to finish the blocking. Which one is more difficult? Now that electromagnetic ejection system has been developed, will it be difficult to develop Electromagnetic arresting system? (it's difficult to translate properly “正” “反” for me, anyone can help?)

马伟明:不能这样下定论。我们用了1/5的时间就把阻拦做完了,你说哪个难度高?有了弹射的技术阻拦还难吗?弹射和阻拦是一个正一个反,解决了正,解决反不就容易了吗?

Prof. Ma Weiming: You can't make a conclusion like that. We used 1/5th of the time to complete the (R&D progress on the) arresting gear system. Which one is more difficult? With the technology of the catapult launch system, would the (technology of the) arresting gear system still be difficult? Catapult launch system and arresting gear system are basically one "positive component" (refers to the catapult launch system) and one "negative component" (refers to the arresting gear system). Once the "positive component" (catapult launch system) has been solved, wouldn't the "negative component" (arresting gear system) becomes easier to solve?

In this scenario, the "正" and "反" cannot be individually translated from Chinese to Engilsh. They need context in order to reliably translate and made understandable for the readers.
 
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tygyg1111

Senior Member
Registered Member
马伟明:不能这样下定论。我们用了1/5的时间就把阻拦做完了,你说哪个难度高?有了弹射的技术阻拦还难吗?弹射和阻拦是一个正一个反,解决了正,解决反不就容易了吗?
Prof. Ma: Can't come to such a conclusion. It took us 1/5 of the time to finish the blocking. Which one is more difficult? Now that electromagnetic ejection system has been developed, will it be difficult to develop Electromagnetic arresting system? (it's difficult to translate properly “正” “反” for me, anyone can help?)
正/反 - different sides of the same coin
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Also, I kinda have forgotten to actually congratulate China and the PLA(N) on their carrier 18 福建舰 (Fujian), despite being very active here (including yesterday) and even viewing the Guancha stream yesterday lol.

So congratulations!


And to kinda celebrate, here's a rough breakdown of the video about Ma Weimin (link:
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)

---

It's mostly about Ma Weimin (who, from where, how he got to where he is today etc. as well as the various medals/honors he have gotten from his various inventions with his teams).

Ma Weimin, 57 years old (from JiangSu, moreover from a 'normal' family), currently a 院士 (
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) which is basically a very high position for scholars/academics in China, and he became that when he was only 41 years old.

Some of his medals/honors/awards are: (google translate in parenthesis)
- 国家科技进步奖一等奖,2项 (First prize of National Science and Technology Progress Award, 2 times)
- 国家技术发明奖三等奖,2项 (Third prize of the National Technology Invention Award, 2 times)
- 军队科技进步奖一等奖,4项 (First Prize of Military Science and Technology Progress Award, 4 times)
- 荣立个人一等功和二等功,各2次 (Received personal first-class merit and second-class merit, 2 times each)
- 何梁利科学与技术成就奖 (Ho Leung Lee Science and Technology Achievement Award)
- 首届“十佳全国优秀科技工作者”等奖励 (The first "Top Ten National Outstanding Scientific and Technological Workers" award)

Besides that, he is very dedicated to science as well as teaching people, and believes in that the science/innovations needs to be in the hands of Chinese/China (so that stuff like the high tect EUV ban doesn't happen as an example, not mentioned in the video, but basically an example of what he means).

As for how he got to where he is today, he originally didn't think he would get involved with the military since from his childhood he was very innovative/'free spirited' and he thought the life in the military wouldn't suit him (discipline and all that).

He then actually entered a military school (not 100% sure why, maybe he was conscripted? In the 80s the PLA was something like 6 million I think? So it might actually had quite a lot of conscripts and fewer volunteers. Or it could be the science he was interesting in or could apply for was only in a military school/军校).
He did get more accustomed to life in 'the military', but when he graduated and came to his job position (工作岗位) he found that he didn't have a lot of time for innovation/research/science, but his old teacher/mentor Zhang Gaifan(张盖凡) had him return back to university (in exchange for a number of graduates lol) and had him continue his student life (continueing for masters(研究生), the school was 海军工程大学 which I think should be translated to "The Navy engineering university", so he probs wasn't conscripted but had to choose this school for some reason which is military related).

In the early 90s, the PLA for their conventional subs had to import some tech for their subs (十二相整流发电机系统, google translate gives Twelve-phase rectifier generator system), in the negotiations with that foreign company, Ma Weimin proposed that their system had a problems with 固有震荡 (inherent oscillation), but the foreign company was indifferent and said their product had no such problem.
Ma weimin is stubborn/doesn't back down/admint defeat, so he along with his team, then proceed to spend 1800 days (about 5 years) to test, record and analyse stuff.
And was then able to innovate/make “带整流负载的多相同步电机稳定装置” (Multiphase Synchronous Motor Stabilizer with Rectified Load) and made “带稳定绕组的多相整流发电机” (Multiphase Rectifier Generator with Stabilizing Winding), which fixed the issue of 固有震荡, and in the face of reality the company then had to buy the patent/rights from Ma Weimin.
This innovation granted Ma Weimin with 国家科技进步奖一等奖 (I believe in 2001, or maybe it was becoming a 院士 that happend in 2001).

In 2002, after 8 years of work, he along with his team created the world first 交直流双绕组发电机系统 (AC/DC Dual Winding Generator System), which quickly got into production, and since then, the submarines of China has had a 'chinese heart' (engine). (this is talked about around 8:30)

Continueing on, he and his team also worked on many more innovations and key areas/technology, such as the 3兆瓦级高速感应电机系统 (3 MW Class High Speed Induction Motor System), which was something before the US, and in a number of steps, have allowed China to leap frog past everyone else in various areas of electric technology (specifially in the propulsion of ships I believe it was).

In 2003, Ma Weimin along with his team, ventured into trying to make “船舰综合电力技术国防科技重点实验室” (National Defense Science and Technology Key Laboratory of Ship Integrated Power Technology), and he was the first in the world to propose as well as actually make and implement 中压直流综合电力系统 (Medium Voltage DC Integrated Power System), technology which is ahead of the world by about 10 years, and which is also something such as the US, have pivoted to/are researching.
This technology, has basically allowed China to go from being behind, to being in front, when it comes to the technological area of ship propulsion.

Since then, with his various teams, he has been a vital part of pushing chinese weapons to be all eletric (电气化变革).

In 2009, after only 2 years, he led one of his teams and using the technology in the area of ship propulsion, was able to to make 大功率风力发电变流器 (High power wind power converter) which is used in windmills, and it's specs were better than existed at the time, and it has a vital importance and role in the continued push for renewables for China.

In 2010, Ma Weimin along with his, created the “国家能源新能源接入设备研发实验中心” (think it's Wuhan New Energy? The video has a shot of that at around 14:30), and the aim of this is to break monopolies of technology (in regards to energy and renewables) that the west has.

Since then, besides researching and innovating, a core goal of Ma Weimin has been to foster the new generation of scientist and students as well as create more teams for innovations.
From the original 5 people (of Ma Weimin and 4 other), the team has grown to be more than 300 people (I suspect there might be 1 big overall team, but people gets divided into smaller teams tackling more specific problems, not fully sure though).

Since then, lots of talents have grown from under his mentorship, and there's many teams were the it's the 80s and after that are the backbone, with many teams at an average age of 35.

In July of 2015, the PLAN gave Ma Weimin and his team the honorary title of “创新强军马伟明模范团队” and he got the medal from the country “国家科技进步奖创新团队奖” as well as the “集体一等功” twice.

And well, it turns out the 军队科技进步奖一等奖 is a medal he and his team(s) have gotten a total of 17 (!) times and also 9 times 二等奖.

This year (not sure which year, the video just say this year), the medal of “八一勋章” was created in the PLA and Ma Weimin got such a medal.

TLDR: Ma Weimin is fucking chad, and a vital person that has allowed China to come so far it has in the areas of electrical technology. This video also hasn't mentioned anything about EM catapults, cannons etc. So it most likely doesn't have everything that he has been involved in.

Also, the 八一勋章 was apparantly made in 2017, so this video was maybe made around that time? Although it seems like it might have only recently been published (at least that is the case for the video in the link).

Tbh, I was kinda even a bit unsure if I should post a translation of this, but then again, the west (US) should very much know the existence of Ma Weimin, so probably doesn't matter if I post this, not to mention, this probably has gone on chinese tv as well.
 
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