CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[Helius]

How many years has Ford entered service? Still fixing their elevators...

While I don't purport to defend one camp or the other, I think it wouldn't be too unreasonable to say that it would be overly optimistic to assume the PLAN doesn't have any teething problems at all with their CVs either.

Because let's be perfectly honest, the relative lack of transparency on how the CVs have actually been performing to-date (for obvious reasons) beyond the official materials which invariably paint the subject matter in a positive light (again for obvious reasons) makes it just as fair for one to say China's aircraft carriers are performing flawlessly as it is for another to say otherwise.

 

[Richard Santos]

I think, with the number of crewmembers of Liaoning or Shandong two carriers of the final design could be operated. So when the last new carriers are ready, the old ships will be put out of service, srcrapt or sold.

I doubt it. Chinese navy tend not to get rid of equipment that still has some service value. After china has built sufficient number of CATOBAR hulls, the Liaoning and Shandong certainly can still provide value by operate as dedicated platforms for providing air operation over the fleet, such as fleet combat air patrol, plane guard, and Rotary ASW for the larger task force, while freeing the full sized carriers to dedicate to offensive strike and strike escort missions, and to provide fixed wing EWAC.

 

[9615]

While the PLAN's building speed is by no means to be sniffed at, when you start comparing it with the Ford class where each of those units thus far has taken less than 5 years from laying down to launching, and those are a new class of nuclear boats to boot, it speaks to the well-established industrial base and expertise that China still needs to pick up the slack on, if she hopes to match and even surpass that kind of level someday.


That briefly crossed my mind, then I reminded myself Thailand has literally no carrier-borne air wing anymore (apart form helos) ever since they got rid of the last of their Harriers.

So unless China sells them the CV with J-15s as a packaged deal, which is very doubtful; or the Thais buy some Flankers from Russia, again doubtful considering the majority of their business has been with the US and NATO MIC, it will just end up as yet another floating yacht much like the current one.

Considering the progress type 003 has made since it was laid in the dock last summer (Jul/Aug), I wouldn't hesitate to say this is fast, as most carriers take 2-3 years from laying the keel in the dock to launching. On the otherhand, the building speed of American CVNs is also impressive. In the 90s, they were able to launch a Nimiz class within three years of the first keel being laid, and I'm sure China cannot match that at this point. And what's more impressive about the US is that they were able to commision a Nimitz in 5 years from laying the keel; this is way beyond any other countries in the world.

I don't think 001/002 will be sold in a foreseeable future. It's more likely they will get converted to CATOBAR CVs around year 2035.

 

[Blitzo]

Considering the progress type 003 has made since it was laid in the dock last summer (Jul/Aug), I wouldn't hesitate to say this is fast, as most carriers take 2-3 years from laying the keel in the dock to launching. On the otherhand, the building speed of American CVNs is also impressive. In the 90s, they were able to launch a Nimiz class within three years of the first keel being laid, and I'm sure China cannot match that at this point. And what's more impressive about the US is that they were able to commision a Nimitz in 5 years from laying the keel; this is way beyond any other countries in the world.

I don't think 001/002 will be sold in a foreseeable future. It's more likely they will get converted to CATOBAR CVs around year 2035.

I do not think CV-16/17 will be sold, but I also don't think they will be converted to CATOBARs at any point in their life.

Specifically, I do not think the effort, time, money, shipyard space and personnel, that would have to be used to convert them from STOBAR to CATOBAR, would be practically viable.

 

[Silkworm]

I doubt it. Chinese navy tend not to get rid of equipment that still has some service value. After china has built sufficient number of CATOBAR hulls, the Liaoning and Shandong certainly can still provide value by operate as dedicated platforms for providing air operation over the fleet, such as fleet combat air patrol, plane guard, and Rotary ASW for the larger task force, while freeing the full sized carriers to dedicate to offensive strike and strike escort missions, and to provide fixed wing EWAC.

So would this be an argument to support the 001/002 + 003 = 1 "full" effective carrier hypothesis?... going back to Intrepid's supposition that 001/002 is one-third a carrier and 003 is two-thirds a carrier.

 

[Blitzo]

So would this be an argument to support the 001/002 + 003 = 1 "full" effective carrier hypothesis?... going back to Intrepid's supposition that 001/002 is one-third a carrier and 003 is two-thirds a carrier.

I think Intrepid was using it as a demonstration for what sort of carrier capability the PLAN is eventually aiming for within a single carrier ship in the longer term.

Whatever fraction of a "full standard carrier" that CV-16/17 or 003 has, it should have no bearing on how CV-16/17 operates or when they would be retired, because those are questions much more dependent on the exact operational scenario, and longer term strategic naval procurement priorities respectively.

 

[Blitzo]

I doubt it. Chinese navy tend not to get rid of equipment that still has some service value. After china has built sufficient number of CATOBAR hulls, the Liaoning and Shandong certainly can still provide value by operate as dedicated platforms for providing air operation over the fleet, such as fleet combat air patrol, plane guard, and Rotary ASW for the larger task force, while freeing the full sized carriers to dedicate to offensive strike and strike escort missions, and to provide fixed wing EWAC.

Technically true, however this also depends on how many eventual carriers they want, and the opportunity cost of crewing the ships.

Eventually, once they settle on a carrier design they are satisfied with and are willing to mass produce as something close to a "final standard," they will face the question of whether the sailors, crew and pilots that are aboard CV-16/17 are better used to continue serving on CV-16/17 or whether it would be more beneficial for them to operate aboard a large CVN CATOBAR that will offer much greater capability than CV-16/17.


However, this again will only happen once they are close to the "eventual carrier number" they are aiming for.

 

[Richard Santos]

So would this be an argument to support the 001/002 + 003 = 1 "full" effective carrier hypothesis?... going back to Intrepid's supposition that 001/002 is one-third a carrier and 003 is two-thirds a carrier.

I think 001+003 will surpass 1 full carrier regardless whether 003 is just a step to a full carrier or if it is a full carrier already.

right now, because china has no other carriers, 001/002 are seen as mini-general purpose carriers, like American CVN, but much weaker and limited. The question is would there be value in keeping 001 after there are several full carriers in service in the chinese navy already. I think correct answer to the question depends on the appreciation 001’s value as specialized unit that takes on certain roles in a multi-carrier task force can be much greater than 001’s value as a mini general purpose carrier.

 

[Kejora]

I think 001+003 will surpass 1 full carrier regardless whether 003 is just a step to a full carrier or if it is a full carrier already.

right now, because china has no other carriers, 001/002 are seen as mini-general purpose carriers, like American CVN, but much weaker and limited. The question is would there be value in keeping 001 after there are several full carriers in service in the chinese navy already. I think correct answer to the question depends on the appreciation 001’s value as specialized unit that takes on certain roles in a multi-carrier task force can be much greater than 001’s value as a mini general purpose carrier.

Could they convert it into helicopter carrier?

 

[Intrepid]

Could they convert it into helicopter carrier?

They have good new helicopter carriers. Better to build one of them than to fix up an old ship.