Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect
I think you have a lot of mis info. CZ rocket is never imported. If it is, china cant be declared the 3 rd countries able to independently send human to space.
Ad for J-10, I doubt the much contribution of Russian. Probably in the integration of AL-31FN engine area, since J-10 is a national project. The lesser dependent and leak of secret to foreigner.
China has demonstrated many break thru which soviet has not done it. ASAT in 2007 and mid course interception of ABM outside atmosphere cOnducted in 2010.
As for PAFKA, I believe the Russian at least need to show Chinese the airframe and concept to convinced them to invest. Just like how they get the Chinese to invest in the SU-30MKK project. Chinese being more advance that time, knew PAFKA stealth does not fits Chinese more and more demanding requirement.
LOL. You misunderstood a lot of things I have said. I never said ChangZheng series rocket was imported from Russia, but the the emergency escape rocket pod attached on top of the rocket is imported.
emergency rescue rocket pods on the CZ rockets are still imported from Russia
As for J-10. It's not up to our perception whether if Russians assisted in its development, it's a fact that the Russians assisted. SibNIA assisted in finalizing the air-frame and especially in the area of integrating all the subsystems into a complete system. These were quoted from the SibNIA officials from interviews.
SibNIA officials would not discuss the details of their work for the Chinese, but they would talk about what they see as the state of Chinese aircraft design and what they see as the path that the PRC’s Chengdu aircraft enterprise took to develop the J-10 lightweight fighter.
AIN-online
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a typical stereotype-minded Western journalist that thinks everything in China is stolen Western technology. China does indeed do most of the R&D work on their own. In fact J-20 is a great example of pure indigenous effort.
However, Chinese aeronautical industry is still pretty young, mostly copying & reverse-engineering Soviet weaponry in the first 30 years. It wasn't until the JH-7 did the Chinese industry began to tackle R&D head-on, its first time without receiving foreign aids or cloning external designs. On top of that, due to the hiatus of Sino-Soviet split, Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward, and Western technological embargoes, Chinese advancement in the aeronautical field pretty much stagnated for few decades. Even in the 80s and early 90s, although China began to prosper from the economical growth, the military industry was still sidelined and not much funding were given to the aeronautical institutes. Apart from JH-7 and J-10, there wasn't anything came to fruition during that 30 years.
It's true that the collapse of USSR completely castrated the Russian aeronautical industry and it probably will never be as majestic as it once was. But their expertise still cannot be matched by the Chinese for at least another 10 years. The Soviet already built cutting edge TU160 in the 80s, while even today, China still has nothing more advanced than the Korean War era TU16 Badger. The most straight forward comparison could be seen in the fighter jet radars. Russia has about 300+ jets that could fire long range AA missiles (100km+), while China has a few. Even those that could are all imported Sukhoi fighters, such as the Su-30MKK. Russia had already mass produced and equipped hundreds of fighters with AESA radars, but China just started testing them recently. On top of that, Russia had produced F119/120 (powers F22&YF23) equivalent AL41F as early as 1985 and it already flew in 1990.
Another major area that China really could learn from the Russians is the fabrication of single crystal blades. J-10 was designed to house AL31 and WS10 interchangeably, but since another 100 AL31 was ordered from Russia, there must still be some remaining problems to tackle in the production of WS10.
All in all, Russia is still a powerhouse and China is catching up quickly. At least judging from the air-frames of J-10 and PAK-FA, we can see that J-20 is much more stealthy. This could be seen as a huge improvement of the Chinese and showing they are catching up quickly. However, it still has a lot to learn. To this date, J-10 are still using mechanical scanning radar with very limited range and imported AL31 still power majority of the J-11 series and J-10s.
The bottom-line, what I'm trying to say is that, China is catching up quickly and will surpass the Russians in the coming decade, but as of right now, they still have a lot to learn.
Another thing you have mentioned, which the PAK-FA was presented to China but was refused due to its incompetence compared to the J-20. That is not true. PAK-FA was never presented to Chinese officials and neither were they invited to the project. The Russians grew more weary of China's quickly advancing ability and fear of future competition. That's why a lot of the newer weapons are now been barred from being sold to China, that include the S-400, TU22M, Tu160, and latest nuclear subs.
If China was already ahead of Russia, then they wouldn't have need Russian assistance in their new projects, such as Yakolev assistance in L15 trainer and Antonov assistance in the super-critical wing design of Arj-21.
Confidence is good, too much then it becomes arrogant.
---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------
Actually Russians did, and actually Russia did so before they went to India.
Two Chinese general, major general Xu Yongling and Dai Hang, have confirmed independantly, during later 1990s to early 2000, Russia offered the joint development of the 5th generation fighter laterly evloved into PAK-FA to the Chinese side.
And after reviewed the technique proposal, the Chinese side simply rejected Russia offer, citing the fact Chinese side dont think the then russian proposal is a truly 5th generation that can handle F-22, which is the primary design requirement for a PLAAF's 5th generation fighter, thats why they rejected the russian offers.
Can you please send me the link to that claim? I'm really curious to see it. Never read this in the past. Thanks
---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------
I would contest that the true development capabilities of the PLA should be based upon the J-20, rather than the J-10. The J-10 has its israeli roots much like those of the Flanker, except not as transparent. The J-20 however, is a truely distinctive bird, albeit still in testing, but a revolutionary development in China's ability to build airframes.
By this standard, its pretty obvious to say F-22/F-35 are based on mig-25, and F-15/18 are rip-off of Mig-25, so its safe to say Belenko is the father of american aviation industry.
He's telling the truth, at least the flanker part. J-10 might or might not being a successor of the Lavi, but it is indisputable that it did receive foreign assistance, probably Russian at the least.
These minor details are not important, what's important is that you have to learn how to crawl before you can learn how to walk. China went through the crawling stage, either with assistance from others or done it on its own. What's important is that J-20 is now out and will enter service in the coming decade. This is monumental as it is an indigenous project and the experiences gained will propel the team to build more designs on their own.
---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------
I am not talking about paints, I am talking about the outside shape of the aircraft, which cannot be changed by painting.
vs
I am sure you can see the difference, they can modify pakfa's underside to more smooth surface, but that will require some MAJOR modification. It have to almost change the structure of the plane.
This doesn't say much, F22 and YF22 look very different. This is still early on in the project, a lot could change.
