COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

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Orthan

Senior Member
Gatekeeper said:
I suspect if the Russian had a choice, they would choose India as the partner. Unfortunately for them India is not at that stage of economic development for another 20 years.
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Why wouldnt india want to get the tech if it was contributing the most financing and having the bigger market potencial, just like china ?

The thing is, without money, you cant do anything in this world alone. You are always in a disadvantageous position.
 
Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Orthan said:
Why wouldnt india want to get the tech if it was contributing the most financing and having the bigger market potencial, just like china ?

The thing is, without money, you cant do anything in this world alone. You are always in a disadvantageous position.
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No reason at all. I never said India shouldn't have tech if it was paying for it. I'm just saying Russia would like to be the senior partner, and have a junior partner paying for it. And India seems the ideal candidate just like the Russian stealth fighter.

But unfortunately for Russia, the Indian aircraft market is not as big as the Chinese, and it will be another 10 to 20 years (more like 20) before India would have the same size market as China to make it a viable partner. But of course, when that happens, the Russian is going to have the same problem it find itself in now!

All because Russian doesn't have the market size for the kind of economic of scale that USA and Europe enjoys. This was true under the Soviet period and it's true now.
 
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Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gatekeeper said:
I'm just saying Russia would like to be the senior partner, and have a junior partner paying for it.
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Isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation? The way I see it, the CR929 project is premised on Russia contributing certification experience (including Western) as well as superior wing technology. China on the other hand commits deeper financial resources and sanctions-proof access to the single largest airliner market.

If China cuts Russia completely out of the profits from the Chinese market as apparently proposed, what's left in the deal for them? Their wing technology and certification expertise benefit all CR929s, regardless of where they are sold, so why would the Russians not expect to participate in the rewards, regardless of where they are sold?

I can see their point, frankly. With the model envisaged by the Chinese, they're back to where they were with the SSJ and MS-21, rendering cooperation pointless.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
They'll come to a mutually agreeable compromise here or nothing at all. Engines are probably going to be French/Russian?
 
Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Orthan said:
Im no expert, but i believe that without investing in new produts, by the time that happens, the russian tech will be outdated, and then who will be interested in doing joint plane projects with them?
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That maybe so. But that wasn't what I was getting at. I was just pointing out the dire situation the Russians found themselves in. They lack funds, economy of scale. Etc. All they have is tech which could be out dated in a few years. Yet they still like to be the senior/ equal partner in this joint venture. All I'm saying is they are the junior partners in this with China. And if they want to be on equal footing then India is a better choice, but as yet India is not ready.

No more and no less.
 
Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Tirdent said:
Isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation? The way I see it, the CR929 project is premised on Russia contributing certification experience (including Western) as well as superior wing technology. China on the other hand commits deeper financial resources and sanctions-proof access to the single largest airliner market.

If China cuts Russia completely out of the profits from the Chinese market as apparently proposed, what's left in the deal for them? Their wing technology and certification expertise benefit all CR929s, regardless of where they are sold, so why would the Russians not expect to participate in the rewards, regardless of where they are sold?

I can see their point, frankly. With the model envisaged by the Chinese, they're back to where they were with the SSJ and MS-21, rendering cooperation pointless.
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No really, they are getting quite a lot for little outlay. All the risks is with the Chinese. If the project succeed, they will get production skills and markets outside of China. (Which can be quite substantial, and it will certainly be bigger then if they went at it alone) They get the benefit of economy of scales as parts suppliers and inventories cost will be lower. All the sunk cost would be absorbed by China.

Without going with China, their wing and engine tech is next to useless, as they would not be able to make good use of because there would be no planes to attached them to.
 
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Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gatekeeper said:
All the risks is with the Chinese. If the project succeed, they will get production skills and markets outside of China. (Which can be quite substantial, and it will certainly be bigger then if they went at it alone)
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What risk? With a captive home market there is none for the Chinese side to bear - it's essentially a guaranteed sales success no matter how well it fares technically and economically. See ARJ21 which would have been axed years ago according to strictly non-political criteria.

By cutting it out of the Chinese market, Russia is meanwhile left to pursue exclusively those opportunities where there is a real risk of failure, so in fact everything is on them. Without access to the market in China, economy of scale and sales potential for the Russian industry are not very different to a Russian-only aircraft.
 
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EtherealSmoke

New Member
Registered Member
Tirdent said:
What risk? With a captive home market there is none for the Chinese side to bear - it's essentially a guaranteed sales success no matter how well it fares technically and economically. See ARJ21 which would have been axed years ago according to strictly non-political criteria.

By cutting it out of the Chinese market, Russia is meanwhile left to pursue exclusively those opportunities where there is a real risk of failure, so in fact everything is on them. Without access to the market in China, economy of scale and sales potential for the Russian industry are not very different to a Russian-only aircraft.
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True, but you can also reverse the argument. If China puts up all the money and gets none of the tech, then why not just go with a pure Chinese plane? Might as well keep buying Airbus/Boeing while going it alone.

There's a middle ground here where both sides benefit from collaboration, they just need to negotiate and reach that point.
 
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